S4E7: Retrofitting the Future

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This is.
Sustainability forward with

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Rishi.
And Carmini.

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Welcome to Sustainability
Forward.

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We have a new episode, Carmini.
You will remember in one of the

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previous episodes, we looked at
the carbon footprint of an

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individual and we broke it down
into some meaningful categories.

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And the top category that came
out was transport.

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And it appeared from the data
that transport dominates whether

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it's your car or your flights,
it really dominates an

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individual's carbon footprint.
But very close to that was home,

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right?
And, and everything that

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surrounds this entity called
home.

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And unlike transport where
behavior change is needed, where

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infrastructure change is needed,
it might take years before any

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meaningful change can be
noticed.

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Whereas if you think about your
building, there are many things

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that you can actually do about
it from a carbon footprint

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perspective if you really
intended to do so, right?

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So today our intention is to go
a little bit deeper into that.

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What can households do?
What can businesses do in terms

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of reducing their carbon
footprint?

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And we'll also take a look at
what technologies are readily

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available and what is still
getting in the way of actually

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achieving these things.
And to do that, we have a

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fantastic guest.
Carmen, would you please

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introduce him?
Yes, thank you, Rishi.

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And I'm very happy to introduce
today Ascano Vitale.

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Ascano is an expert in
sustainability science with more

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than 30 years of experience in
environmental advocacy and

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practical technical
urbanization, is a dual

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background in aerospace and
electronic engineering, has

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worked as a climate energy
energy company for the

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Greenpeace and WWF, served as
ACOP delegate and has altered

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papers for the European
Commission.

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Since 26.
He has founded and directed Stop

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CO2 where he provides
sustainability and energy

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consulting services and assigns
ultra efficient buildings.

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He also contributed to
development of one of the most

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advanced carbon footprint
calculation platforms for a

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commercial aviation which
received the European Seal of

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Excellence in 2017.
He also served for six years as

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a board member for Population
Matters and he rides widely on

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sustainability, including
through is sub stocks newsletter

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sustainability bills that they
received every Saturday is one

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of my, let's say every Friday.
Sorry, every Friday morning in

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my mailbox.
And I truly like it.

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So ask annual.
Thank you so much for coming to

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Sustainability Forward.
Thank you, Carmi, Thanks for

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having me and thank you Rishi.
Great, Kenya again, great to

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have you.
Let's start with the big picture

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first.
The headline number that we

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often hear is that buildings
account for roughly 40% of

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global energy consumption.
Yet even in this kind of massive

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energy consumption, the pace of
retrofit and the improvements in

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energy efficiency still feel to
be very, very slow.

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In your opinion, what is the
honest assessment of where we

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stand today in terms of
improvements of efficiency and

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retrofit in buildings?
Yeah, sure.

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It's not just about the energy
consumption.

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It's, it's of course it's linked
to global emissions.

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So buildings around the world
account for about 15% of global

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emissions.
And when it comes to electricity

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as well in it's about 55%.
And waste construction and

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demolition account, at least in
the EU, according to the

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European Commission, about
around a third, 36% to precise

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of our global of the European
waste.

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So it's, it's a huge footprint,
whether it's material emissive

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or energy footprint.
So it's, it's definitely has to

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be addressed and has to be
addressed faster than most of

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other solutions because as you
say, it's predominant, it's very

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relevant.
The problem is, I mean, if you,

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if you consider that about 85%
of buildings, at least I'm

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talking about the EU, because
this is where my, my job focuses

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most on more than 85% of the
buildings were built before

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2001.
So they were built according to

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lower standards and, and in a
complete different world and

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they're going to be still
standing in 2050.

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So if we're going towards net
zero, we're definitely missing

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the point when it comes to the
building industry.

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If you add to that, that we are,
we are retrofitting and building

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new buildings up around 1% of
the total of the total market.

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So it's very slow.
We've been, it's going to take

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100 years to retrofit or to
build new buildings, more

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efficient buildings.
The pace that it's, it's been

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forecasted as ideal by the
European Commission with the

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EPPD, the European, sorry, EBPD,
the European Building

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Performance Directive, it's
around 3%.

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So we are like a third of the
pace that we should assume here

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in the UK, in the EU.
Adding to that, every

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intervention is around 99% is a
retrofit and 1% is a new build.

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So I must specify that in in a
sort of an ecological point of

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view, the new bills are more
impactful than retrofits which

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should focus on retrofit and we
are doing it right now.

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But retrofits are more cost and
more costly for land owners are

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more difficult.
You know it, it's more difficult

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to, to save energy retrofitting
on old buildings rather than

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building a new one, but it
definitely reduces the amount of

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energy, the embodied carbon and
the materials that have been

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that have been used during the
intervention.

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So it is the right way, but
we're doing it too slow.

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So what are the main
constraints?

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I believe the first one is the
high upfront cost, which is what

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I in 20 years that I've been
doing retrofits around Europe

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and not only there, I can feel
that the first reaction whether

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it's luxury or middle class or
social housing, the typical

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approach is why do I have to
spend this much.

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But it's a, it's a typical thing
that actually it's reflected in

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any kind of transition solution.
We have to invest when it comes

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to innovation, we have to invest
in upfront cost in order to

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adopt new more efficient
solutions that actually pay back

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with time.
So the problem is when you don't

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have the the cash we do, you
don't have the money to invest

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and three times you don't have
the will so much because I had

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clients who spent more on the
base than they spent on the

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heating system of their own,
their own home.

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But it, whether it's cultural or
structural, it's still a big

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problem and it can be addressed.
But it needs, you know, policy

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needs right governance, it needs
information, education.

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And it's a, it's a, it's a mix
of solution that must be applied

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and we're not doing it
effectively.

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The second I believe could be
the low owner awareness.

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I mean, there are people who are
building or retrofitting their

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own home, but there are also
many landlords that are building

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to sell or building to rent.
And that's a complete different

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approach and a complete
different perception of on how

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to spend the money when you're
building a retrofitting a

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building.
Because when you're renting

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mainly you, you think that the
utilities are going to be paid

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by the tenants.
So why do I have to spend in

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giving them an efficient
building when it's only a

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benefit for them?
The third one we're starting, I

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mean, as the pace of the
retrofit is increasing, even

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though it's increasing very
slowly, there's a lack of

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skilled labor.
And I'm not talking about only

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engineers and architects.
I'm talking about the

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installers, the contractors.
I'm talking about the supply

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chain problem that it's not only
about the cost that can be and

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it, it has been rising in the
past during the pandemic and

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it's rising again now as the
rest of the world is starting to

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adapt into the new transition
solutions.

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But it's also the cost of
scaffolding, It's a cost of

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cement, the cost of, of timber
of copper pipes.

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So it's, it's a, it's a trouble
as well when it comes to heat

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pumps because the biggest, the
biggest vendors are Korean, are

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Asian, are Chinese or Japanese.
And we are, we have in Europe,

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we have some producer, but they
still rely on Asian supplies.

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So when the supply chain starts
to be constrained by high demand

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or problems like the energy
crisis right now and you know,

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the straight of our moods that
stops any kind of supply being

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being brought to Europe from
Asia.

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The the cost of the retrofit
skyrockets and people even stop

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their own retrofit sometimes.
So let's try to to summarize the

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three pointer you said as can.
So one was the the cost, the

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high retrofit cost that you
mentioned, the awareness

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problem, I call it probably also
the you have many different

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stakeholders, different
motivation, different reason why

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to do it.
And you mentioned the supply

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chain.
Now I think it's a good moment

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to start probably splitting this
problem between household

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private ownership versus
commercial building.

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Because I think the second point
that you mentioned, different

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stakeholders, different
motivation, different way to

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look at where I spend the money,
how I spend the money, how I can

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get money to build this kind of
business case.

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Let's start with the households.
For an individual or homeowner

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or even a family living in a
home, why should they care about

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improving the footprint of their
houses?

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Other than doing that, I think
what's their motivation?

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Well, there is one which is
probably the the most important

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one and it's straightforward.
It's to contain energy bills.

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As I said, even though it seems
costly to, to undertake a high

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energy retrofit, higher energy
efficiency retrofit, it pays

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back and it pays back very
quickly.

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Regardless the the presence of
incentives which you know

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contain the, the up from cost.
But the the payback is insured

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by the fact that heat pumps, for
example, they consume about

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6570% less energy than than a
gas boiler.

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Insulating the house contains
energy.

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Installing renewables on site
reduces the cost of the of of

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the energy bills.
Because a buying a solar panel,

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whether it's solar thermal or
solar photovoltaic, it means

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spending not much on efficiency.
It can be compared to buying a

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batch of highly discounted
energy for 3025, thirty years.

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So it seems a lot.
But then if you take into

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account that on average you pay
around if when you buy solar PV

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and you install it on your
house, you are paying the

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kilowatt hours around 4 euro
cent per kilowatt compared to a

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market price of around 304025.
It depends, you know, on the

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energy, on the, on the state, on
the country, you're paying it.

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But it's, it's definitely, I
mean, containing energy bills

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means not only paying less, but
also being more resilient to

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cost oscillation.
So as the gas cost, the gas

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prices rise, the percentage that
you're paying, if you are

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keeping, you're just insulating
the house and you're keeping a

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gas boiler, you're spending less
in gas, which means the marginal

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increase of your bill.
It's lower than other people

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with a less insulated house.
It's, I mean, if you compare a

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Class A building with a class E
or F, which is the average in

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Europe, we're talking about on,
on the real use case, even

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though in theory it's even more
better than the real use case.

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It's around 40 to 70% of savings
on energy bills.

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So it's helping, if not, you
know, reducing by 2/3 the energy

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cost and the energy cost it's
about, you know, it's, it's a

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very high in cost voice in the
in the family budget.

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Yeah.
And getting higher everyday

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given today's environment now as
Kenya, there is of course an

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element of you know what type of
building you are in, what is the

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condition and what not.
But as a home owner, what is

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kind of the recipe?
Is there a logical sequence of

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things to to follow or, or is
there nothing like that in this

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area?
Is there like a framework or

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something that they can think
about when they want to improve,

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improve the footprint of their
house?

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Sure, let's not forget it.
It's not just about energy, it's

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also about improving comfort,
improving wholesomeness of the

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indoor environment.
When I was leading the energy

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campaigning with WWF in Italy, I
remember that WWF was producing

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up research on blood from of
housemaids and people working on

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industrial sites and working
outdoor.

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And people living indoor had
more polluted blood than living

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people living outdoor.
Mainly outdoor because when you

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open your windows, you actually
accumulate pollution from the

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outdoor environment.
And these are micro dust that

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deposit onto the ground.
And when you Hoover your place,

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the filter of your Hoover
doesn't filter out micro dust,

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so you actually just raise
rising them on in the

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environment and breathing them
out.

228
00:13:55,240 --> 00:14:00,760
So you're the and added to that,
their use of synthetic materials

229
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,120
for insulation, it increases
pollutants sometimes because the

230
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,320
the walls are actually
transpirating, they're

231
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,440
breathing, they're not a
complete sealed environment.

232
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:14,120
So the air coming in, it mixes
with contaminants and addictive

233
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,160
additives added to the synthetic
materials that evaporate with

234
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,520
time.
So it's very important to

235
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,680
understand that it's, it's a
matter of energy, it's a matter

236
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,960
of wholesomeness, it's a matter
of innovation, because getting a

237
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,280
house future proof helps
containing costs in the, in the

238
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,160
future and reduces the amount
of, of operating and maintenance

239
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:36,160
costs as well.
What is the, there's a, there is

240
00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,480
a structure approach, There is a
logic of how to intervene, but

241
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,160
it's not always the same.
It depends on the climate, it

242
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,920
depends on the budget of the
client.

243
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,840
It depends on, on many other
factors.

244
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,640
But mainly you should typical
engineering approach is to

245
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,720
contain the energy consumption
first.

246
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,120
So it's about insulating your
house and there are priorities

247
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,560
as well when you insulate how a
home because you have to take

248
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,480
into account that heat tends
tends to rise upwards.

249
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,560
So containing the insulating the
roof is the first thing to do

250
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,960
because it's, it's around 60% of
the heat that you lose from from

251
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,360
a home.
Then you go on to perimeter

252
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,360
walls and windows and then the
basement.

253
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,960
Of course, there's a, there's a
discussion to to be done in

254
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,280
getting more details about air
tightness.

255
00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,000
But let's start with insulation.
The second step would be

256
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,320
changing the technology with,
with which you heat and cool and

257
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,680
produce hot water in the house,
because that's the main energy

258
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,440
cost in the home.
Don't forget in generally in, I

259
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,480
mean it changes with the with
climate, but generally about 80%

260
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,080
of the consumption in the home
is thermal consumption.

261
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:55,280
So it's hot water, it's heating
and cooling and about 20% is the

262
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,680
General Electric consumption.
So it's appliances, your hair

263
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,880
dryer, your TV, your computer
and so on, lighting and so on.

264
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,640
Changing from a gas boiler to a
heat pump, as I said, off if not

265
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,040
more, it reduces a lot the the
energy consumption.

266
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:18,000
Yeah, the third one would be
start to produce on site part of

267
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,640
your energy.
So using solar thermals or APV,

268
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,400
maybe even micro wind
installations.

269
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,680
Don't forget that heat pumps
themselves are a renewable

270
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,440
energy generator because when
they produce the heating or the

271
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,080
cooling or the heat up the the
water that you use in your sink

272
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:40,680
or in your shower, they use
about 3, three, fourth of the

273
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,440
energy.
It's coming from the outside air

274
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:50,440
or the ground or a close lake or
torrent or a river or whatever.

275
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,360
So it the the heat pump.
So right, renewable energy

276
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,400
generator, because it grows
energy from the environment and

277
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,920
uses to add it to a small
addition of electricity.

278
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,480
You know, the smart home
solutions, smart technologies,

279
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,119
they can contribute to, to close
the loop.

280
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,079
Because it has been demonstrated
that even monitoring your

281
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,800
consumption with a smart meter,
when you look at how much you're

282
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,200
consuming every second, you
know, you know that you're

283
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:29,680
consuming 10P an hour or P an
hour of €50 cent.

284
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,120
I'm sorry, I'm in the UK, but
this kind of kind of monitoring

285
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,040
helps changing the behavior
within the home.

286
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,600
And it's, it's been demonstrated
that it reduces the energy

287
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,920
consumption by 5 to 15%, even 17
in some cases.

288
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,840
It can be arranged even in
offices, not only in homes.

289
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,840
And there are, there have been
offices in the United States

290
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,720
that did in each floor of the of
the building, they did a

291
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,160
competition of which floor was
the most efficient one with

292
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,560
prizes.
So it was an incentive for

293
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,920
employees to save energy to
switch off their computer, to

294
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,120
switch off to to lower the
temperature of the the cooling

295
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:08,680
system or switching off lights
and so on.

296
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,640
So let's can you.
What I like about this

297
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,040
discussion is that sometimes
energy efficiency is not the

298
00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,000
sexiest topic in energy.
But actually there are some

299
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:26,000
really practical things to do.
Technology is there and really

300
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,840
probably simple to do it and
quite accessible.

301
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,840
In the previous episode, for
example, we talked about the

302
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,920
pumps.
I had also my own example

303
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,200
summarizing the 4th point that
you said.

304
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,360
So insulation, hot water cell
production, smart technology.

305
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,960
I jump directly to the second
one to the pump.

306
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,400
But you made me think that
probably insulation is something

307
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,560
that we need to probably
prioritize if possible.

308
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,560
Now I live in France, so I
enjoyed what is the tax benefit

309
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,960
here for in selling it pumps,
getting some grants.

310
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:58,960
Many countries have different
kind of strategies.

311
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:04,160
So subsidies, mortgage, green
mortgages, tax benefits.

312
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,240
Do you think this is working?
Is the right way to incentivize?

313
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,080
Are we still missing something
to really incentivize early

314
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:20,240
adopters going to mass market?
There are, there are some good,

315
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,560
you know, best practices around
Europe that could be a good

316
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600
example for many, for many
politicians around Europe,

317
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,400
around the world, but not all of
them work very well.

318
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,120
They're effective in some use
cases, they're they're not in

319
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:37,040
others.
So I believe that there's, it's

320
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,760
quite a complicated discussion,
but the, the basic principle is

321
00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,400
a rotational fund would be a
very interesting point to start

322
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,240
from.
And it's it's very complicated

323
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,000
to do it when it's easier with
companies.

324
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,920
It's more complicated to do it
with households.

325
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,640
But it's it's about anticipating
the upfront cost to to whomever

326
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,160
has to intervene with the
retrofit or new, new build.

327
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,560
In Italy, for example, if you've
got an incentive that is

328
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,520
proportional to the expense, so
it gives you back as a tax

329
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,760
credit for five years and
sometimes less about 5055% of

330
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,800
your investment, it's a very
good incentive because it's

331
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,520
proportional to the to the cost.
So it works in any kind of size

332
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:28,120
of retrofit, but it doesn't work
really well when it comes to

333
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:31,280
middle class, low income family
or even social housing.

334
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,880
Because if you don't have the
money, it's not important how

335
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,320
much you get back.
You don't just can't start your

336
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,120
own breath of it.
So the rotational funds are

337
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,320
different because it's, it's a
sort of a lease, It's lending

338
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,080
the money that you need to do
the intervention.

339
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,800
Then you pay back with your
bills with time instead of

340
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,880
paying with tax credits.
Because some people, for

341
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,360
example, have retired people
that they don't pay income tax.

342
00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:56,600
So a tax credit would be
completely useless.

343
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,120
England, we've got a different
one, which is a one off figure.

344
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:03,040
It's very interesting.
It's about 75 changing from a

345
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,600
gas boiler to a heat boiler,
electric boiler to a heat pump.

346
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,480
And it pays back the extra cost
of a heat pump and it pays even

347
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,440
more.
I mean you, you get money to to

348
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,520
start paying your retrofit other
than just the heat.

349
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,080
And it works really well for low
income families.

350
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,400
It's very interesting.
But as soon as you start

351
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,600
increasing the the size and
think about a landlord who has a

352
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,080
big building and he's investing
into a bill to rent or a bill to

353
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,800
sell and he wants to put up a
heat pump and he's looking for

354
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,440
some incentive to help him out.
Well, 7500 lbs for an entire

355
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,040
building is just a small
fraction of the cost.

356
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,600
So I believe that the best
solution would be analyzing all

357
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,560
the best practice and try to
learn and absorb parts of the

358
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,040
rationale that is behind this
governance and start thinking

359
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,360
about more about the income of,
of the, the people who are doing

360
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,320
the retrofit rather than the
expense of the, of the retrofit

361
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,560
itself.
Because as I said, the problem

362
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,920
of that from cost rises as you
lower the income of the owners.

363
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,000
That reduction, sorry, VAT
reduction, is another kind of

364
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,560
incentive that could be adopted
because it's easier for the

365
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,480
politicians to do it.
Yeah.

366
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:23,240
And now if we extend this
thinking from sort of individual

367
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:29,200
houses etcetera to what the
commercial building sector is

368
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,960
facing, what's your perspective
on that as Kenya?

369
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,600
There is the problem with the
split incentives owner does it,

370
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,240
tenant benefits from energy in
individual homes.

371
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,400
You've sort of outlined other
considerations, but how do we

372
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,760
crack the problem of commercial
buildings?

373
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,200
Yeah, that's, that's, it's not
only commercial buildings.

374
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,400
I mean, if you the commercial
buildings, you, you include the

375
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,360
owners who are renting the tuned
Wow, there's yes, that's a big

376
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,120
deal.
I mean, I live in a rent I I

377
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:04,040
rent right now and my land
landlord wasn't very keen on on

378
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,080
changing my gas boiler with a
with a heat pump.

379
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,880
Luckily I found an energy
supplier gives me 100% bio gas,

380
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,880
but it's, you know, it's a
virtual benefit.

381
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,480
It's not a real one because I'm
still emitting CO2 locally.

382
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,520
So what, what can be done?
I mean, what I have tried to to

383
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,320
tell him is I can contribute to
part of the retrofit because

384
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,920
part of the benefit falls into
onto my own.

385
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,360
But I try to let him understand
that he actually it's a benefit

386
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,360
that comes that goes to that.
I mean, it's a benefit for him

387
00:23:34,360 --> 00:23:37,240
as well, because future proofing
the house means that he can

388
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,720
raise the rent for to to other
people in the future and

389
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:42,440
increase his margin on on the
House.

390
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,720
It's even more visible when when
it comes to offices.

391
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,880
For example, most offices, at
least here in the UK, is less

392
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,480
frequent in Italy and Southern
Europe.

393
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,040
But they pay the rent, including
the energy bills.

394
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:02,160
So in this kind of forfeit case,
it's even the tenant is not keen

395
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,960
on on doing any retrofit because
he says I'm already paying a

396
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,560
fixed price.
Why should I care?

397
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,640
So in but in this case, it's the
owner who has the the higher

398
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,880
benefit.
Because what I tell them is if

399
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,160
you retrofit your own office,
you actually, you're increasing

400
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,960
your, your margins because you
can, you know, not rise the, the

401
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,960
rent and, and have the people
staying more longer for, in your

402
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,760
building while you're increasing
your rent because the actual

403
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,840
real, the real bill goes down.
And so there are, there are ways

404
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,560
to do it.
There are, there can be special

405
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,480
incentives.
I will talk.

406
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,520
I was talking about the VAT
reduction, which is still

407
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,400
attractive for some land owners.
There are European directives

408
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,840
that actually oblige the
landlords to, to retrofit their

409
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,520
own buildings.
It's kind of a slow directive.

410
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,240
And that's, that's a bigger
discussion about the political

411
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,600
will and the political ideology
and how they, they influence

412
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,720
the, the governance on, on
energy efficiency.

413
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,400
But I believe that most of the
contribution would come from

414
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,880
governance.
So we need to oblige to do it

415
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,560
because it's something that
reflects back onto social cost.

416
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:17,040
Our taxes pay for all the
externalities of our energy

417
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,680
consumption.
So whether it's pollution from

418
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,880
gas boiler, which reflects on to
health, health care costs

419
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,560
because it produces pathologies,
it kills people around the

420
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,800
world, it's it degrades
monument, it kills biodiversity,

421
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:37,240
but it's also the cost of
dangerous climate change events.

422
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,120
And these are all paid by
everyone in, in our taxes.

423
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:45,960
So there must be a way, there
should be a way to let everybody

424
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,040
comply to, to the transition
because it's it benefits

425
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,080
everybody.
What was that?

426
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,960
Carminate the The Tragedy of the
Commons?

427
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,440
I think it was one of the
episodes we did related to what

428
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,760
you're what you're what you've
just mentioned.

429
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:03,840
Yes.
And actually we talk about

430
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,640
behaviours, we talk about
policies.

431
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:12,960
Now the importance of let's say
that the government to shape to

432
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,920
shape.
Let's go back a little bit on

433
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,640
the technology angle.
We have three engineers here in

434
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,280
the podcast.
So we'll also sometimes look

435
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:23,440
like to go back and look at what
is happening in the market.

436
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,480
But I'm interesting asking you
to to know from your perspective

437
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,920
what which generally excites you
right now.

438
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,000
Probably there are technologies
that are ready, deployable or

439
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,520
very close to readiness to go to
market that you think they.

440
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,600
Serve much more.
Attention that they get right

441
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,280
now.
What's your view?

442
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,680
Yes, there are upcoming
interesting technologies.

443
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,760
I mean, of course we, you know,
everybody going around social

444
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,760
networks or browsing the news,
they reads from time to time

445
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,280
about some miraculous solutions,
new batteries that works with

446
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,320
water and and so on.
I'm generally by quite skeptical

447
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,600
about that.
I follow scientific papers, I

448
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,880
follow the the market, I follow
vendors and industry instead of

449
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,840
just relying on generalistic
media.

450
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,040
So there's a big difference
between announcement and what

451
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,120
actually can be scalable, what
actually can be reliable in

452
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,640
enough to enter the market and
and be this being disruptive for

453
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,720
the market.
So I believe that right now

454
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,600
there are two main very
interesting technologies that

455
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,680
are very close to to market.
And the first one is perovskite.

456
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,320
It's a, it's a different
material than the silicon, the

457
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,600
typical silicon that is used in
solar PV panels and perovskite.

458
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,560
It actually increases the
efficiency by 4050% compared to

459
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,360
the traditional solar PV.
That means that we can reach

460
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,280
efficiencies, total efficiencies
around 35%.

461
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,360
Right now it's around 2224 and
it seems a little marginal

462
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,040
increase, but it's a big
contribution.

463
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,160
Just think about utility scale
PV which are the most needed

464
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,920
source of energy around the
world and it's the fastest 1

465
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,880
rising right now.
We actually it took cars around

466
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,560
6570 years to reach a first
terawatt around the world and in

467
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,880
about two years where we are
reaching the the the second

468
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,800
terawatt.
So the the exponential growth of

469
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:23,280
this solar technology, it drives
driving the transition, but it

470
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,520
occupies space.
Of course it's a very small

471
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,040
fraction.
I mean, it's about 0 point

472
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,840
something percent in depending
on the country, but it's a very

473
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,560
small land use.
But still if we account that we

474
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,320
with perovskite, we can reduce
the surface by 1/3, it means

475
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,720
that we can produce 35% more
energy or we can use less land

476
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,640
to produce the same amount of
energy with the very comparable

477
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,760
costs.
So it's a very interesting

478
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,760
technology and it's not only
about utility PV, but it's, I've

479
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,640
got a friend working on research
and they're researching

480
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,080
transparent film based on
perovskite.

481
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:07,240
And that means that we we will
be able to apply a solar PV

482
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,600
technology on almost anything on
a track, on a backpack, on a

483
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,360
device, on windows, in in
skyscrapers where it's very

484
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,720
difficult on high rise building
to actually have the surface

485
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,680
enough to to auto produce the
energy that is consumed by the

486
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,520
building.
So using vertical facades helps

487
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,040
integrating the the missing
surface.

488
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,560
So there are so many different
applications and the problem

489
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,680
right now is not much the energy
gain that you get because in lab

490
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,720
tests it's very promising.
But right now the problem is

491
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,280
that with UV light, it actually
degrades with time faster than

492
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,920
silicon.
So they are working on tweaking

493
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,720
the crystals and adding
different materials so that

494
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,760
this, these panels can last as
much as silicon panels.

495
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,600
But I strongly believe in what
the tandem cells are going to be

496
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,560
doing in the next 10-15 years.
And I, I guess, I mean, there's

497
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,080
already a Korean company that is
building them as producing them.

498
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,280
The big scaling it's going to,
it's going to happen in five to

499
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,320
10 years.
And tandem cells are very nice

500
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,720
because they apply perovskite
over the silicon panels.

501
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,120
So we use traditional technology
and we've got the, the

502
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,400
technology, you know, the
industry already with all the

503
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,160
machinery needed to, to build
it.

504
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,560
We just have to add and deposit
a different material and it

505
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,400
increases the, the gain.
The second one is batteries.

506
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,240
We don't have to forget the, one
of the most important thing when

507
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,840
we increase our energy mix onto
variable renewables is that we

508
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,680
need storage on a daily basis
and on a long, on long term

509
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,480
seasonal terms.
The most important one is the

510
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,080
daily, the daily one and
chemical storage is increasing

511
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,640
the the role because the the
cost has been falling down.

512
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,480
It's been about 90% in the last
10 years.

513
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,840
It went down.
So right now solar PV plus

514
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,560
storage, chemical storage costs
less than gas, it costs less

515
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,720
than than coal, wind and solar.
Together with storage they can

516
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,080
ensure a very constant supply of
energy throughout the day.

517
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,760
So, so it takes off any kind of
bulk production.

518
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,000
So I refer to any thermoelectric
production which is very

519
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,200
pollutant like coal or gas and
nuclear as well which is very

520
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,800
expensive.
And with these solutions,

521
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,440
batteries are very important.
So right now we are proceeding

522
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,040
towards solid-state batteries.
They're going to be having a

523
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,680
very long and much longer life
cycle and, and their, their

524
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,160
efficiency, it's increasing
right now it's slower than the

525
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,080
lithium one, but it's going to
get rid of the critical

526
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,480
material, materials that are
difficult to find and costly to

527
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,840
extract.
So sodium, for example, can be

528
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,880
derived even from desalina tion
plants.

529
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,480
So it's actually it's a benefit
because it reduces the impact of

530
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,080
desalina tion, which is
increasing around the world for

531
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,040
climate change.
So there's a, there's a synergy

532
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,360
between technologies that are
very interesting. 22 seconds can

533
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,320
you so do wrap up here we talk
about the energy efficiency, we

534
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,280
talk how to accelerate very
quickly.

535
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,040
If you can remove you have a
magic bond and you can remove

536
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,440
one of the roadblock today to
get scale with energy efficiency

537
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,360
in home which one you pick
first?

538
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,840
So, behavioral Financial Policy
regulation technology.

539
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,720
Yeah.
Then there is one that it's been

540
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:46,080
obtained 20 years anywhere in
Europe, a little bit less

541
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,640
elsewhere.
But you know in Europe we've got

542
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,640
a very huge historical heritage
when it comes to architectural

543
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,480
buildings.
So there's a regulatory

544
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,000
constraint that it comes to
aesthetics.

545
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,360
So in Italy is very strong.
I mean, if you, if you ask to

546
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,640
install a couple of panels over
a roof, they're going to start

547
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,800
saying, yeah, but I, I don't
have to see it from Rd.

548
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,880
Rd. level.
I don't want it to be a

549
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,720
different color because it's
ugly.

550
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,200
And it's kind of, I remember
discussion with a close friend

551
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,680
of mine, a colleague, an
architect, a very, very good

552
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,480
experienced architect.
And I was telling him he's an

553
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,160
Austrian guy.
And I was telling him in Italy

554
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,480
that the incentive was higher if
you flush the panels on into the

555
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,720
roof, a little bit lower if you
were putting them on the roof

556
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,440
and even lower if the roof was
flat.

557
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,680
So you had to rise the panels
over the roof and let them be

558
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,920
more visible.
And he said, why do you pay

559
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,640
less?
And I said, because, you know,

560
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,640
because they said it's ugly.
And why suddenly I would be

561
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,360
proud of installing and showing
that my house is actually

562
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,160
innovative.
And that's a huge constraint

563
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,760
because many times we we are
stopped and we have to wait for

564
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,400
years, sometimes not even months
to have the authorization to

565
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,280
proceed.
And this is really stupid.

566
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,520
I mean, again, it's ugly.
I mean, aesthetics is very

567
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,960
subjective, first of all, but
it's, it's nonsense.

568
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:17,280
So we should adopt and we've got
the technology to to reduce this

569
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,560
visual impact, but it's not an
environmental impact.

570
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,800
Environmental impact is the gas
boiler that I'm going to install

571
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,080
if I don't in solar, Solar
thermal panel that produces the

572
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:31,520
hot water without gas.
It's, it's just bonkers, this.

573
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,239
Has been a very rich
conversation, so thank you so

574
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,080
much for coming to the show
before leaving.

575
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:38,960
Where can people follow your
work?

576
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,159
Well, for Italian speaking
audience, I've got the

577
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:49,440
sustainability deals which is at
ascano.substec.com and I as you

578
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,040
said, I mean I'm not very
regular.

579
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,080
It depends on how much work I
have to do, but I'm trying to be

580
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,600
as regular as I can.
It's been going on for a couple

581
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,600
of years and it's gathering
interest and I have an audience

582
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:03,360
that I'm really proud of.
And it humbles me because I've

583
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,920
got university professor and
EPS, you know, European

584
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,800
Parliament members.
I've got lots of researchers and

585
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,480
consultants, but I am starting
it in English as well.

586
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,560
So it's at stopco2.subsec.com
right now.

587
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,440
There's already a few pills
being translated and I'm going

588
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,640
to insist in the future and
increase the, the number of

589
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,320
English, English articles.
So that's, that's one way.

590
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,120
And you know, follow me on
LinkedIn as well.

591
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,600
You can find me on LinkedIn and
you can contact me if you need

592
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,880
anything.
I'm there for consultancies.

593
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Great.
So Cameron, as I said, the

594
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,480
beginning one of our previous
episodes told us that buildings

595
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,960
are a big part of the climate
challenge.

596
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,920
I think today's episode also
highlighted the fact that it's

597
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,280
not just a climate challenge.
There are many other challenges

598
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,120
in terms of their footprint that
pose, you know, a big problem

599
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:58,880
for us.
But more importantly, we also

600
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,680
learned that there are big
opportunities in the building

601
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,960
sector as well with as can.
We explored why retrofits are

602
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,080
moving slowly, what households
and businesses can actually do

603
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,160
today, where policy, financing,
and even your sense of

604
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,880
aesthetics can play a role.
And very importantly, we heard

605
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,880
that it is not only about
carbon, it is not only about

606
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,480
cost.
It also has the aspect of

607
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,440
comfort, health, resilience, and
making our homes and workplaces

608
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:33,120
fit for the future.
So for all of that, Ascano,

609
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,800
thank you very much for for
joining us on this episode of

610
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,440
Sustainability Forward and
Sharing your expertise so, so

611
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,840
generously.
And thank you, Carmina, as

612
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,520
always, for for a great
conversation and thanks to all

613
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,200
of you around the world for
tuning into Sustainability

614
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,600
Forward.
Thank you, It's been a pleasure.

615
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:53,480
Thank you, Richie.
Thank you, Scan.