May 5, 2026
S4E8: Change in Motion with Jennifer Motles
In this episode of Sustainability Forward, we speak with Jennifer Motles, Chief Sustainability Officer at Philip Morris International, about what sustainability leadership looks like inside a complex global business undergoing transformation.
Jennifer shares her journey into sustainability leadership and explains how she sees the role of a CSO: not as a side function, but as a driver of long-term value creation, resilience, and business transformation. The conversation explores why sustainability must start with a company’s most material impacts, how systems change requires action far beyond one company alone, and why transformation should be understood not as a project with a clear end point, but as continuous “change in motion.”
We also discuss what it takes to drive change across a large organisation, how senior leadership alignment shapes progress, and why credibility comes from outcomes, evidence, and transparency around both achievements and limitations. Jennifer offers a candid perspective on trade-offs, accountability, and the realities of working on difficult sustainability challenges where change is often slower and messier than outside observers expect.
This episode will be especially relevant for sustainability professionals, business leaders, and anyone interested in how real transformation happens inside large organisations.
Topics covered:
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Jennifer Motles’ journey into sustainability leadership
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Why sustainability matters in the context of business transformation
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Systems change and the role of business in tackling complex challenges
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How to drive change across strategy, operations, and leadership
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Credibility, accountability, and evidence in sustainability
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Why transparency about trade-offs and limitations matters
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Advice for people trying to create meaningful change inside complex organisations
A thoughtful episode on leadership, realism, and why the hard work of sustainability happens from within.
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This is sustainability forward
with Rishi and Carmini.
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Hello, and welcome to
Sustainability Forward, the
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podcast where we review multiple
aspects of sustainability and
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specifically, we try to
understand how sustainability is
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being shaped inside business,
inside industry, as well as how
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sustainability is impacting
leadership and leadership
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styles.
I'm your host, Richie.
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And I'm Carmine, so to this
conversation sits right an
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intersection of complexity,
transformation, and leadership.
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So sustainability is easy to
discuss in simple settings.
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We've all done talked about
sustainability in multiple ways.
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It becomes much more
interesting, we think when you
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compare how companies are
thinking about it, how they're
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going into the deeper questions
about change, about scrutiny,
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long term value creation and and
many other surrounding aspects.
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And that is exactly what today's
guest brings, which is basically
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a very distinct perspective on
sustainability to our episode on
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sustainability forward.
So today we are very delighted
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to welcome Jennifer Motels.
And Jennifer joined Philip
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Morris International PMI in 2015
and has served as the company's
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Chief Sustainability Officer
since October 2020.
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In this role, she leads PMI
sustainability agenda as core
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driver of business strategy and
long term value creation.
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She overseas the design and
deployment of PMI Value Plan
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2030 Plus grounded in a double
materiality assessment and
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structure around six strategic
priorities consumers,
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circularity on workforce,
workers in the value chain,
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climate and nature.
A leadership is central to our.
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PMI embeds sustainability into
its long term business strategy,
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driving sustainable sustainable
business to value creation.
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During a Turner at PMI, Jennifer
has played a pivotal role in
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shaping the company's Statement
of Purpose and expanding
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sustainability strategy through
Value Plan 2030.
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Plus, Jennifer rolls a junior
doctor, Judy's daughter, degree
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from Universidad de Chile,
Escuela de de Reggio, and a
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Master of Law's degree from
University of California,
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Berkeley School of Law.
Jennifer, welcome to
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Sustainability Forward.
Thank you for having me.
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It's my pleasure to be here
today.
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Thank you, Jennifer.
So to start with, Jennifer,
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maybe tell us a little bit about
your own journey and what
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brought you into sustainability
leadership.
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Our audience is very curious
about these things, so it would
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be great to learn about your
journey into sustainability
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leadership.
Woof.
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It's a it's a difficult question
to summarize.
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I will try my best.
You tell me how I do I.
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So I been in this role as Chief
Sustainability officer of PMI
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for five years now.
I joined the company 10 years
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ago.
Now I'm going to turn 11.
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And it was always I like to say
in one way or another working in
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sustainability even though
sustainability did not exist as
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such at PMI back then in 2015.
And frankly, I don't think
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sustainability existed in the
world in any corporation in the
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way that we understand it in
2015.
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But in terms of my values and
the way that I understood what
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businesses can do for society
and in what context they exist,
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I think that I was always
working in one way or another on
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sustainability.
My background is, as you said
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before, I'm a lawyer.
I specialize in international
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law and human rights.
And so I always had this feeling
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and this belief really that
businesses can do so much more
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than just serve their
shareholders and generate
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profit.
I think that business can be a
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huge force for good.
And so it was driven by that
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belief that I joined this
company and in different
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positions in different
capacities eventually go to the
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role where I am today.
Interesting, Very very
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interesting background.
And let's move then towards this
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journey when you join PMI.
So just for our audience, it's a
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big company, but can you help us
just to quick summarize what
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what you are busy with over
there?
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Well, just to describe a little
bit the company and then move
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into your role as a Chief
sustainability officer, sure
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means in practice in a global
company.
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Practice.
So PMI, for those who don't know
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it is has been traditionally
known for being a cigar company.
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This is historically what made
Philip Morris International
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famous.
But I think today that is no
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longer the case.
Actually.
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The company has been going
through a long journey, very
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radical journey of
transformation to no longer base
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its success on making or selling
cigarettes.
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And so in that context, in that
context of transformation, what
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does sustainability mean?
And I think that for a company
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like PMI, but frankly, as a case
study, is a beautiful example of
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rethinking what is your role in
society with how you operate,
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how you define success, what
products do you bring to society
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and how are you able to exist
while respecting environmental
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and social boundaries.
So what is my job as CSO?
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This is what you ask me in this
company and in the way that we
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understand sustainability, is
how to think about this company
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to be successful today, but also
to be successful in the long
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term.
Understanding that many things
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are outside of our control and
will change, and that we have
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the opportunity, but also the
duty to build resilience, to
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adapt, to ensure that we are
complying with what regulation
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is coming to mitigate risk and
to understand technology as a
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huge opportunity for innovation
and growth so that we can bring
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more value to society and the
planet.
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Very interesting, Jennifer.
Both of us, Carmen and I come
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from the energy industry
background and, and when we say
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energy or sustainability in the
energy industry context, we can
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identify exactly why, right.
In the production of fuels,
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typically you emit a lot and
then the fuels themselves also
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emit a lot, right, which both
need to therefore be abated in
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some way.
One of the questions that many
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of our listeners might be asking
is why does a company like PMI
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care about sustainability?
You know, all of us probably
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know the the most famous brands
that the, that the company has,
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but but why does it care about
sustainability?
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And you said, you know the
change, this change a few years
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ago.
What brought about that change?
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It's a great question and I love
it that you phrase it in the
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context of energy because what
you're hinting there is that
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transition, right?
You're talking about.
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You actually said it.
You said this need to abate,
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this need to understand, account
and recognize the impacts of
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what is being produced and then
the impacts of what is that
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production having when it's
being used.
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And there is this fundamental
need in the energy sector, even
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though I don't work there, to
think about how success looks
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like in the future without
having such a negative impact on
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the planet, particularly on the
environment.
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And there are for sure parallels
that you can draw with the
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tobacco industry or particularly
with PMI, because this is what
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makes PMI so unique.
This deep acknowledgement that
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the company had basic success on
a legacy product that was very
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harmful to the health of the
consumers.
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And that it decided not because
it became mandatory, but because
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we believed it was our duty to
invest in R&D to 1st, understand
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where the harms of smoking are
coming from.
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And secondly, understand how can
we avoid or reduce significantly
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those harms by developing and
commercializing better
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alternatives than continue
smoking.
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And I should be clear here,
because it's not like PMI is
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shifting to a place where it's
selling products that are risk
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free or healthy, right?
That's not the case.
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What PMI is doing is to
understanding consumer behaviour
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very well, understanding also
very well where the harms of
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smoking are coming from, the
investing in R&D to have better
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alternatives to continue
smoking.
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And the thing that that might
surprise you that most people
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don't know is that there's over
a billion people smoking
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cigarettes in the world.
These are not my numbers.
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These are WHO numbers.
And importantly, these were the
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numbers when I joined PMI in
2015.
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And these were the projections
to 2025.
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There was AW Cho report
published then that said the
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number of smokers is 1.1
billion.
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The projections are to remain
steady by 2025, which was the
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case.
And now past 2025, the number of
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smokers remains the same.
And so that creates a big
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fundamental question, what is
happening?
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Because if we all know that
smoking is not good, why are
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people not smoking less?
And I think it's a combination
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of things.
And this brings me to the to the
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origin of your question, What
does sustainability mean to PMI?
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And what is the parallel with
the energy industry when you
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want to create a change that is
so complex, like, for example,
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transitioning people away from
fossil fuels to alternative
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sources of energy, or when you
want people to stop smoking you,
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You're really talking about the
need for systems change.
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And it's not something that one
company can create in a silo.
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It's something that really
requires A paradigm shift.
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And all different parts of
society need to work together.
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You need the scientific
community, you need a regulation
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that can match consumer
behaviour.
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You need infrastructure so that
this transition can happen.
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You need media, you need
different, you need academia.
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And then, of course, you need
business that has us an
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important resource of ingenuity
to invest in innovation and find
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better alternatives.
And so here is where for me,
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what PMI is doing when it comes
to sustainability is so powerful
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because it's not like we're
taking sustainability issues
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that have become quote, UN
quote, popular, like addressing
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climate change or like
addressing human rights, which
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by the way, we're doing, and
they're very important.
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But this is not the most
material issue.
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This is not the biggest negative
externality that we create.
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So where is that biggest
negative externality?
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It's the health impacts of our
products.
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And as you were talking, you
mentioned a few words starting
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from system change, Jennifer,
actually probably our probably
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first episode, one of the first
episodes we did with Richie in
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3-4 years ago was around the
system change importance in
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terms of sustainability, right?
Because it's, it's one of the
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reason also why we started this
podcast, because we bringing
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together, as you mentioned,
people from business, from
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academia, policy makers, right?
Consumers, businesses and people
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know.
I think that I think that that
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is the common denominator when
it comes to sustainability.
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So be it climate change, be it
poverty, inequality or smoking,
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these are systemic issues.
And so it's it's unrealistic to
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expect that one company is going
to fix it by itself.
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It's also unrealistic to believe
that the problem can be fixed
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without involving businesses.
So how can you create an
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environment where really all
different stakeholders from all
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different parts, with different
expertise and with different
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mandates can come around the
table and together decide how to
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change the status quo?
This is what for me is
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fascinating.
And you can take this recipe,
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let's say this premise and apply
it to any systemic issue.
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So if you've been in the energy,
you guys come from the energy
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sector and you've been really
focusing about how to tackle
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climate change efficiently,
probably you've reached the same
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conclusion, right?
It's not just about energy
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companies moving away from
fossil fuels or disclosing
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information or having the right
kind of regulation that mandates
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it.
You also need infrastructure.
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You also need to change consumer
demand.
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You also need media to
participate.
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So it's so complex and so messy
that I think that there's also
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an humbling component of
understanding that change really
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doesn't happen overnight.
It takes a lot of time to
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achieve.
And there is another dimension
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that is around timing, right,
sense of urgency.
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And you mentioned transformation
and it's a word that keeps
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coming.
I see also in the word, in the
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work you produce.
I very like much what you had
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introduced, the change in motion
argument and now it's linked to
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transformation.
A transformation that is not
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just a project doesn't ever a
beginning of our end, right,
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More a kind of a process.
So can you talk a little bit
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about about this, about this?
Sure.
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That's really nice and thank you
for asking me about it.
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Because indeed the the company
declared this mission, this
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00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,960
purpose about moving away from
cigarettes for the first time
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publicly in 2016, so 10 years
ago.
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And that transformation is very
much ongoing.
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So along the way, I think that
we all realized that a
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transformation is a project that
begins and that ends.
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But this is not really the the
ethos of what PMI is about.
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We are really changing
constantly.
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We're changing to adapt to a
world that is changing very fast
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to consumer demands that are
changing very fast to policy and
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regulation that is evolving very
quickly.
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And the, the key to being
successful is to anticipate a
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lot of these changes to be able
to keep the pulse on where the
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world is going.
And for that you need to be
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continuously in motion.
You need to be changing all the
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time.
And I think that the companies
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that are able to a, accept this
as a reality and BA are
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successful at doing it, are the
ones who are going to be around
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in the long term.
Otherwise it's not going to work
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out.
Now moving from, you know, the
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the idea of the vision for
sustainability, why
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sustainability is important,
let's focus a little bit on
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sustainability leadership.
Our understanding from having
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been involved in this kind of
projects is that it it really
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requires a lot of coalition
building, but also should I say
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the practical approach of of
understanding where the
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00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,760
trade-offs are.
How do you bring kind of
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different parts of the
organization behind you in
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trying to achieve, you know, the
vision of sustainability for
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PMII?
Think that I agree with what
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you're saying, but I think that
framing it that way would
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already put me in a place of US
against them.
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You know, and I, I, I genuinely
don't think that that's the
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case.
I think that this only works
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when you have the the complete
and genuine endorsement from
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senior leadership in our, in my
case from our CEO, from our CFO
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and importantly from our board
that believe that accounting for
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other forms of capital that are
not just financial capital, like
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natural capital, like social
capital, like human capital,
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like intellectual capital are as
important as guarding and
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preserving and growing our
financial capital.
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So the health of our company,
the success of our company does
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not rest on just financial
success.
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It rests on the healthiness of
the relationships that we have
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and how we protect the resources
that we rely on.
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00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:18,720
And so if you, and by by you, I
mean the leadership of a company
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believes this, then ultimately
what you're doing is that you're
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putting someone in charge to
execute that, right.
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00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,360
So it's not me versus the
machine trying to build a
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00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:33,680
coalition.
It's me with a mandate of our
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senior leadership developing a
strategy that can successfully
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integrate these considerations
so that we can be successful in
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the long term.
So what I'm trying to say is
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that it all starts by how does
the company understand value
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00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,480
creation.
If if you anyone who's done an
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00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,320
MBA and has gone to Business
School, there's a lot of talk
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00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,040
about creating value and how you
account for it.
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And the traditional way of
accounting for value and
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00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,520
creating value and valuing a
company is through financial
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00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,800
capital and how you grow it.
But the truth is that there are
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00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,160
other forms of capital that are
as relevant for the success of
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00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,480
the business.
And these are many of the
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00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:23,800
capitals that are managed by our
sustainability strategy.
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00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,400
So everything related to the
natural resources that our
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00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,960
company relies on.
In our case, a company that has
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00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,520
a heavy supply chain based on
agriculture, understanding that
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00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,680
we are relying on water, that we
are relying on a tobacco crop,
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00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,280
that we are relying on the
fertility of the soil, that
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00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:45,600
we're relying on forests and
preserving natural ecosystems
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00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,240
and ensuring that we're
managing, that we're mitigating
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00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,760
the impacts we're creating and
that we're adapting
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00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,280
appropriately.
Again, it's not a as it's not a
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00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,120
me versus them trying to
convince that this is good for
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the company.
It's genuinely being business
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savvy and understanding that
ultimately this is about
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00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,480
mitigating risk, this is about
complying with regulation that
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00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,520
is on the way or is already
there.
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00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,120
It's about operational
efficiency, it's about resource
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00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:21,040
optimization, and it's about
investing in innovation and
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00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,480
growth for value creation
ultimately.
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00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,160
So I yeah, when you when you see
it this way, you understand that
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00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,680
it's really one whole
organization growing in that
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00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,560
same direction.
And it takes a lot of courage
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00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,160
also to move everybody in the
same, in the same direction, as
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00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:41,680
you said, during the same
motion.
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00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,360
Now, how do you think, Jennifer,
about credibility and
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00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:50,440
accountability in a way that
focuses on outcomes and evidence
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00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,960
rather than labels?
I think that this is really
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00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,600
important.
You were no Rishi was talking
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00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,760
about trade-offs before.
I didn't mention it, but your
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00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,080
question actually ties to that.
I think that everything in life
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00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,520
is about trade-offs, everything
in life is about compromise, not
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00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:15,560
just sustainability.
And so in an ideal world, things
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00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,120
would function in a specific way
and everybody would be happy.
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00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,920
In an ideal world, cigarettes
wouldn't exist anymore.
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00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,440
In an ideal world, we would we
would have managed to make
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00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,320
cigarettes obsolete.
By the way, PMI is not the only
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00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,680
company that is selling
cigarettes, so it doesn't just
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depend on us many years ago, but
it's not as easy.
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It's not a straightforward and
understanding how bumpy that
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00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,880
road is and how complex the
journey becomes.
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00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:51,240
It's a very, very important part
of managing, managing your work,
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00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,080
managing expectations and
understanding success.
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00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,080
So for sure credibility comes
from accountability for saying
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this is what I would like to
achieve, this is what I can
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00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,520
control and this is outside of
my control.
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00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,520
This is outside of my sphere of
influence.
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00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:15,440
And I think that many companies
are very shy about talking about
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00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,360
their limitations.
They, they don't want to talk
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00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:22,800
about what they're unable to do
because it may, it will make
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00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:29,480
them look weak or not capable or
not championing enough certain
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00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,200
topics.
I, I fundamentally disagree with
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00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,880
that.
I think that talking about your
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00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:41,760
sphere of influence shows a very
deep awareness of the complexity
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00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,520
of the issues that you're trying
to tackle.
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00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,000
So what I try to do when we talk
about transformation
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00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,160
particularly but not only any
sustainability issue is to say,
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well, we would like to achieve
net 0 by 2014.
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00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,480
We would like to make cigarettes
obsolete.
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00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,080
This is how I will show you that
I want that to happen.
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00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,680
Look at 99% of my Rd. spend
going into this new business.
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Look at where my CapEx is going.
Look at my commercial
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00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,200
expenditure.
Look at the transformation of
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00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,240
factories that used to make
cigarettes and not make
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00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,920
cigarettes anymore.
Look at the volume of cigarettes
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00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,600
that we were making, year on
year decreases everything that
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00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,320
is under control, we're
accelerating to the Max, but
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some things are outside of our
control.
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00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,640
So if a country regulates to ban
smoke free products and we
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00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,000
cannot sell them, what else are
we going to sell if not?
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00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,040
And so I think that talking
about those problems actually
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creates the opportunity for
dialogue to try to understand
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00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,080
back to your point about
credibility, trust,
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00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,680
accountability and trade-offs.
What is it that you can do?
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00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,240
What is it that you cannot do?
And what is the other part
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00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,640
willing to do if they are
serious about achieving that
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00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,200
change?
If I take it out of tobacco and
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00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,360
to energy that you guys are more
familiar with if you think about
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00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:11,480
reducing fossil fuel
consumption, but you have people
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00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,000
that don't want to.
I'm, I'm giving a very basic,
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00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,200
basic example, but people don't
want to switch to electric
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00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,600
vehicles or cities don't have
the infrastructure to charge
369
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,160
electric vehicles.
The percentage of people
370
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,200
switching to electric vehicles
is going to be significantly
371
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,440
lower than if you equip a city
with the infrastructure for the
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00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,160
transition.
And a company alone, it cannot
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do that, right?
So you really need all players
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00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,720
around the table to talk about
what you're willing to do, what
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00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,480
you're not willing to do.
And again, what are the traders?
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00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,240
Where is it that you compromise?
And how does the pace of change
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00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,360
really look like?
Because sometimes we were
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00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,520
talking about courage.
There's also something very
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00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,160
humbling about the pace of
change.
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00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,680
You can accelerate to a degree,
but the pace of change is the
381
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,080
pace of change.
You cannot go faster than where
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00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,040
you can go.
And I'm realizing that also
383
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,520
allows you to manage
expectations in terms of when is
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00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,920
it that we're going to arrive to
that desired outcome.
385
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,440
Excellent.
Jennifer, as we come to the
386
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:22,400
close of this episode, maybe
let's let's ask you about advice
387
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,800
that you would give to people,
particularly in the
388
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,120
sustainability domain who are
trying to create meaningful
389
00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,760
change specifically in large and
complex organizations.
390
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120
It's a it's a nice question.
Thank you for asking me.
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00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:44,600
I think that I would say don't
give up, don't lose hope, and
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00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,560
your work matters.
I think that it's easy to go and
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00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:56,040
work in those places where
things are easy and everything
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00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,680
is flowing because there's no
complications.
395
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,120
It takes a very special kind of
bravery to go into complex and
396
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:08,440
complicated places and try to
change them.
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00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,800
And for that, kudos to you.
Don't give up.
398
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,080
Good note to end the episode on
Jennifer.
399
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,080
Thank you so much for joining
us.
400
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,720
Thanks to.
You for inviting me?
401
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,040
I really appreciate it.
No.
402
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,800
Thank you.
I mean what I'm taking away from
403
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,000
this episode is that
sustainability narrative or or
404
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,760
leadership is not about easy or
clean answers.
405
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,040
It is about actually doing the
transformation work from within,
406
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,360
making this practical
trade-offs, building credibility
407
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,560
through evidence, and as you
said, you know, staying focused
408
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,920
on long term value creation.
So it's been a great episode on
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00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,080
our side.
Thanks again for being with us,
410
00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:49,040
and thanks to everyone of you
listening to Sustainability
411
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,080
Forward.
You've been listening to
412
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,440
Sustainability Forward.
If you enjoyed this episode,
413
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,880
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subscribe.
414
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You can find
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00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:06,200
all major podcast platforms and
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416
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,520
Forward the Podcast.
00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,600
This is sustainability forward
with Rishi and Carmini.
2
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,160
Hello, and welcome to
Sustainability Forward, the
3
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,240
podcast where we review multiple
aspects of sustainability and
4
00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:20,560
specifically, we try to
understand how sustainability is
5
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:25,040
being shaped inside business,
inside industry, as well as how
6
00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,600
sustainability is impacting
leadership and leadership
7
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,680
styles.
I'm your host, Richie.
8
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,720
And I'm Carmine, so to this
conversation sits right an
9
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,000
intersection of complexity,
transformation, and leadership.
10
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,360
So sustainability is easy to
discuss in simple settings.
11
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,640
We've all done talked about
sustainability in multiple ways.
12
00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,080
It becomes much more
interesting, we think when you
13
00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,240
compare how companies are
thinking about it, how they're
14
00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:00,960
going into the deeper questions
about change, about scrutiny,
15
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,200
long term value creation and and
many other surrounding aspects.
16
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,600
And that is exactly what today's
guest brings, which is basically
17
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,960
a very distinct perspective on
sustainability to our episode on
18
00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:20,000
sustainability forward.
So today we are very delighted
19
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,400
to welcome Jennifer Motels.
And Jennifer joined Philip
20
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,720
Morris International PMI in 2015
and has served as the company's
21
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,080
Chief Sustainability Officer
since October 2020.
22
00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,920
In this role, she leads PMI
sustainability agenda as core
23
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,000
driver of business strategy and
long term value creation.
24
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,080
She overseas the design and
deployment of PMI Value Plan
25
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,400
2030 Plus grounded in a double
materiality assessment and
26
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,560
structure around six strategic
priorities consumers,
27
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,960
circularity on workforce,
workers in the value chain,
28
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,280
climate and nature.
A leadership is central to our.
29
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,480
PMI embeds sustainability into
its long term business strategy,
30
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,560
driving sustainable sustainable
business to value creation.
31
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,960
During a Turner at PMI, Jennifer
has played a pivotal role in
32
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,120
shaping the company's Statement
of Purpose and expanding
33
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,080
sustainability strategy through
Value Plan 2030.
34
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,320
Plus, Jennifer rolls a junior
doctor, Judy's daughter, degree
35
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,680
from Universidad de Chile,
Escuela de de Reggio, and a
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Master of Law's degree from
University of California,
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Berkeley School of Law.
Jennifer, welcome to
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Sustainability Forward.
Thank you for having me.
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It's my pleasure to be here
today.
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Thank you, Jennifer.
So to start with, Jennifer,
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maybe tell us a little bit about
your own journey and what
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brought you into sustainability
leadership.
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Our audience is very curious
about these things, so it would
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be great to learn about your
journey into sustainability
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leadership.
Woof.
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It's a it's a difficult question
to summarize.
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I will try my best.
You tell me how I do I.
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So I been in this role as Chief
Sustainability officer of PMI
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for five years now.
I joined the company 10 years
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ago.
Now I'm going to turn 11.
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And it was always I like to say
in one way or another working in
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sustainability even though
sustainability did not exist as
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such at PMI back then in 2015.
And frankly, I don't think
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sustainability existed in the
world in any corporation in the
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way that we understand it in
2015.
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But in terms of my values and
the way that I understood what
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businesses can do for society
and in what context they exist,
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I think that I was always
working in one way or another on
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sustainability.
My background is, as you said
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before, I'm a lawyer.
I specialize in international
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law and human rights.
And so I always had this feeling
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and this belief really that
businesses can do so much more
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than just serve their
shareholders and generate
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profit.
I think that business can be a
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huge force for good.
And so it was driven by that
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belief that I joined this
company and in different
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positions in different
capacities eventually go to the
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role where I am today.
Interesting, Very very
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interesting background.
And let's move then towards this
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journey when you join PMI.
So just for our audience, it's a
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big company, but can you help us
just to quick summarize what
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what you are busy with over
there?
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Well, just to describe a little
bit the company and then move
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into your role as a Chief
sustainability officer, sure
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means in practice in a global
company.
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Practice.
So PMI, for those who don't know
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it is has been traditionally
known for being a cigar company.
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This is historically what made
Philip Morris International
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famous.
But I think today that is no
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longer the case.
Actually.
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The company has been going
through a long journey, very
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radical journey of
transformation to no longer base
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its success on making or selling
cigarettes.
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And so in that context, in that
context of transformation, what
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does sustainability mean?
And I think that for a company
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like PMI, but frankly, as a case
study, is a beautiful example of
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rethinking what is your role in
society with how you operate,
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how you define success, what
products do you bring to society
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and how are you able to exist
while respecting environmental
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and social boundaries.
So what is my job as CSO?
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This is what you ask me in this
company and in the way that we
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understand sustainability, is
how to think about this company
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to be successful today, but also
to be successful in the long
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term.
Understanding that many things
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are outside of our control and
will change, and that we have
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the opportunity, but also the
duty to build resilience, to
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adapt, to ensure that we are
complying with what regulation
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is coming to mitigate risk and
to understand technology as a
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huge opportunity for innovation
and growth so that we can bring
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more value to society and the
planet.
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Very interesting, Jennifer.
Both of us, Carmen and I come
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from the energy industry
background and, and when we say
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energy or sustainability in the
energy industry context, we can
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identify exactly why, right.
In the production of fuels,
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typically you emit a lot and
then the fuels themselves also
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emit a lot, right, which both
need to therefore be abated in
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some way.
One of the questions that many
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of our listeners might be asking
is why does a company like PMI
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care about sustainability?
You know, all of us probably
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know the the most famous brands
that the, that the company has,
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but but why does it care about
sustainability?
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And you said, you know the
change, this change a few years
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ago.
What brought about that change?
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It's a great question and I love
it that you phrase it in the
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context of energy because what
you're hinting there is that
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transition, right?
You're talking about.
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You actually said it.
You said this need to abate,
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this need to understand, account
and recognize the impacts of
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what is being produced and then
the impacts of what is that
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production having when it's
being used.
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And there is this fundamental
need in the energy sector, even
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though I don't work there, to
think about how success looks
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like in the future without
having such a negative impact on
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the planet, particularly on the
environment.
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And there are for sure parallels
that you can draw with the
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tobacco industry or particularly
with PMI, because this is what
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makes PMI so unique.
This deep acknowledgement that
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the company had basic success on
a legacy product that was very
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harmful to the health of the
consumers.
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And that it decided not because
it became mandatory, but because
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we believed it was our duty to
invest in R&D to 1st, understand
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where the harms of smoking are
coming from.
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And secondly, understand how can
we avoid or reduce significantly
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those harms by developing and
commercializing better
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alternatives than continue
smoking.
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And I should be clear here,
because it's not like PMI is
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shifting to a place where it's
selling products that are risk
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free or healthy, right?
That's not the case.
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What PMI is doing is to
understanding consumer behaviour
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very well, understanding also
very well where the harms of
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smoking are coming from, the
investing in R&D to have better
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alternatives to continue
smoking.
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And the thing that that might
surprise you that most people
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don't know is that there's over
a billion people smoking
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cigarettes in the world.
These are not my numbers.
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These are WHO numbers.
And importantly, these were the
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numbers when I joined PMI in
2015.
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And these were the projections
to 2025.
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There was AW Cho report
published then that said the
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number of smokers is 1.1
billion.
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The projections are to remain
steady by 2025, which was the
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case.
And now past 2025, the number of
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smokers remains the same.
And so that creates a big
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fundamental question, what is
happening?
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Because if we all know that
smoking is not good, why are
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people not smoking less?
And I think it's a combination
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of things.
And this brings me to the to the
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origin of your question, What
does sustainability mean to PMI?
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And what is the parallel with
the energy industry when you
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want to create a change that is
so complex, like, for example,
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transitioning people away from
fossil fuels to alternative
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sources of energy, or when you
want people to stop smoking you,
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You're really talking about the
need for systems change.
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And it's not something that one
company can create in a silo.
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It's something that really
requires A paradigm shift.
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And all different parts of
society need to work together.
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You need the scientific
community, you need a regulation
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that can match consumer
behaviour.
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You need infrastructure so that
this transition can happen.
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You need media, you need
different, you need academia.
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And then, of course, you need
business that has us an
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important resource of ingenuity
to invest in innovation and find
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better alternatives.
And so here is where for me,
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what PMI is doing when it comes
to sustainability is so powerful
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because it's not like we're
taking sustainability issues
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that have become quote, UN
quote, popular, like addressing
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climate change or like
addressing human rights, which
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by the way, we're doing, and
they're very important.
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But this is not the most
material issue.
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This is not the biggest negative
externality that we create.
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So where is that biggest
negative externality?
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It's the health impacts of our
products.
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And as you were talking, you
mentioned a few words starting
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from system change, Jennifer,
actually probably our probably
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first episode, one of the first
episodes we did with Richie in
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3-4 years ago was around the
system change importance in
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terms of sustainability, right?
Because it's, it's one of the
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reason also why we started this
podcast, because we bringing
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together, as you mentioned,
people from business, from
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academia, policy makers, right?
Consumers, businesses and people
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know.
I think that I think that that
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is the common denominator when
it comes to sustainability.
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So be it climate change, be it
poverty, inequality or smoking,
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these are systemic issues.
And so it's it's unrealistic to
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expect that one company is going
to fix it by itself.
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It's also unrealistic to believe
that the problem can be fixed
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without involving businesses.
So how can you create an
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environment where really all
different stakeholders from all
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different parts, with different
expertise and with different
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mandates can come around the
table and together decide how to
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change the status quo?
This is what for me is
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fascinating.
And you can take this recipe,
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let's say this premise and apply
it to any systemic issue.
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So if you've been in the energy,
you guys come from the energy
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sector and you've been really
focusing about how to tackle
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climate change efficiently,
probably you've reached the same
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conclusion, right?
It's not just about energy
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companies moving away from
fossil fuels or disclosing
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information or having the right
kind of regulation that mandates
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it.
You also need infrastructure.
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You also need to change consumer
demand.
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You also need media to
participate.
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So it's so complex and so messy
that I think that there's also
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an humbling component of
understanding that change really
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doesn't happen overnight.
It takes a lot of time to
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achieve.
And there is another dimension
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that is around timing, right,
sense of urgency.
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And you mentioned transformation
and it's a word that keeps
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coming.
I see also in the word, in the
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work you produce.
I very like much what you had
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introduced, the change in motion
argument and now it's linked to
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transformation.
A transformation that is not
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just a project doesn't ever a
beginning of our end, right,
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More a kind of a process.
So can you talk a little bit
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about about this, about this?
Sure.
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That's really nice and thank you
for asking me about it.
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Because indeed the the company
declared this mission, this
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purpose about moving away from
cigarettes for the first time
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publicly in 2016, so 10 years
ago.
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And that transformation is very
much ongoing.
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So along the way, I think that
we all realized that a
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transformation is a project that
begins and that ends.
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But this is not really the the
ethos of what PMI is about.
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We are really changing
constantly.
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We're changing to adapt to a
world that is changing very fast
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to consumer demands that are
changing very fast to policy and
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regulation that is evolving very
quickly.
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And the, the key to being
successful is to anticipate a
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lot of these changes to be able
to keep the pulse on where the
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world is going.
And for that you need to be
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continuously in motion.
You need to be changing all the
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time.
And I think that the companies
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that are able to a, accept this
as a reality and BA are
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successful at doing it, are the
ones who are going to be around
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in the long term.
Otherwise it's not going to work
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out.
Now moving from, you know, the
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the idea of the vision for
sustainability, why
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sustainability is important,
let's focus a little bit on
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sustainability leadership.
Our understanding from having
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been involved in this kind of
projects is that it it really
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requires a lot of coalition
building, but also should I say
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the practical approach of of
understanding where the
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trade-offs are.
How do you bring kind of
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different parts of the
organization behind you in
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trying to achieve, you know, the
vision of sustainability for
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PMII?
Think that I agree with what
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you're saying, but I think that
framing it that way would
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already put me in a place of US
against them.
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You know, and I, I, I genuinely
don't think that that's the
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case.
I think that this only works
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when you have the the complete
and genuine endorsement from
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senior leadership in our, in my
case from our CEO, from our CFO
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and importantly from our board
that believe that accounting for
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other forms of capital that are
not just financial capital, like
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natural capital, like social
capital, like human capital,
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like intellectual capital are as
important as guarding and
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preserving and growing our
financial capital.
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So the health of our company,
the success of our company does
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not rest on just financial
success.
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It rests on the healthiness of
the relationships that we have
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and how we protect the resources
that we rely on.
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And so if you, and by by you, I
mean the leadership of a company
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believes this, then ultimately
what you're doing is that you're
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putting someone in charge to
execute that, right.
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So it's not me versus the
machine trying to build a
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coalition.
It's me with a mandate of our
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senior leadership developing a
strategy that can successfully
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integrate these considerations
so that we can be successful in
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the long term.
So what I'm trying to say is
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that it all starts by how does
the company understand value
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creation.
If if you anyone who's done an
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MBA and has gone to Business
School, there's a lot of talk
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about creating value and how you
account for it.
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And the traditional way of
accounting for value and
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creating value and valuing a
company is through financial
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capital and how you grow it.
But the truth is that there are
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other forms of capital that are
as relevant for the success of
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the business.
And these are many of the
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capitals that are managed by our
sustainability strategy.
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So everything related to the
natural resources that our
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company relies on.
In our case, a company that has
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a heavy supply chain based on
agriculture, understanding that
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we are relying on water, that we
are relying on a tobacco crop,
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that we are relying on the
fertility of the soil, that
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we're relying on forests and
preserving natural ecosystems
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and ensuring that we're
managing, that we're mitigating
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the impacts we're creating and
that we're adapting
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appropriately.
Again, it's not a as it's not a
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me versus them trying to
convince that this is good for
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the company.
It's genuinely being business
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savvy and understanding that
ultimately this is about
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mitigating risk, this is about
complying with regulation that
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is on the way or is already
there.
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It's about operational
efficiency, it's about resource
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optimization, and it's about
investing in innovation and
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growth for value creation
ultimately.
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So I yeah, when you when you see
it this way, you understand that
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it's really one whole
organization growing in that
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same direction.
And it takes a lot of courage
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also to move everybody in the
same, in the same direction, as
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you said, during the same
motion.
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Now, how do you think, Jennifer,
about credibility and
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accountability in a way that
focuses on outcomes and evidence
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rather than labels?
I think that this is really
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important.
You were no Rishi was talking
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about trade-offs before.
I didn't mention it, but your
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question actually ties to that.
I think that everything in life
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is about trade-offs, everything
in life is about compromise, not
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just sustainability.
And so in an ideal world, things
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would function in a specific way
and everybody would be happy.
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In an ideal world, cigarettes
wouldn't exist anymore.
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In an ideal world, we would we
would have managed to make
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cigarettes obsolete.
By the way, PMI is not the only
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company that is selling
cigarettes, so it doesn't just
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depend on us many years ago, but
it's not as easy.
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It's not a straightforward and
understanding how bumpy that
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road is and how complex the
journey becomes.
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It's a very, very important part
of managing, managing your work,
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managing expectations and
understanding success.
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So for sure credibility comes
from accountability for saying
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this is what I would like to
achieve, this is what I can
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control and this is outside of
my control.
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This is outside of my sphere of
influence.
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And I think that many companies
are very shy about talking about
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their limitations.
They, they don't want to talk
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about what they're unable to do
because it may, it will make
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them look weak or not capable or
not championing enough certain
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topics.
I, I fundamentally disagree with
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that.
I think that talking about your
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sphere of influence shows a very
deep awareness of the complexity
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of the issues that you're trying
to tackle.
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So what I try to do when we talk
about transformation
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particularly but not only any
sustainability issue is to say,
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well, we would like to achieve
net 0 by 2014.
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We would like to make cigarettes
obsolete.
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This is how I will show you that
I want that to happen.
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Look at 99% of my Rd. spend
going into this new business.
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Look at where my CapEx is going.
Look at my commercial
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expenditure.
Look at the transformation of
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factories that used to make
cigarettes and not make
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cigarettes anymore.
Look at the volume of cigarettes
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that we were making, year on
year decreases everything that
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is under control, we're
accelerating to the Max, but
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some things are outside of our
control.
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So if a country regulates to ban
smoke free products and we
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cannot sell them, what else are
we going to sell if not?
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And so I think that talking
about those problems actually
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creates the opportunity for
dialogue to try to understand
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back to your point about
credibility, trust,
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accountability and trade-offs.
What is it that you can do?
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What is it that you cannot do?
And what is the other part
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willing to do if they are
serious about achieving that
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change?
If I take it out of tobacco and
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to energy that you guys are more
familiar with if you think about
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reducing fossil fuel
consumption, but you have people
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that don't want to.
I'm, I'm giving a very basic,
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basic example, but people don't
want to switch to electric
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vehicles or cities don't have
the infrastructure to charge
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electric vehicles.
The percentage of people
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switching to electric vehicles
is going to be significantly
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lower than if you equip a city
with the infrastructure for the
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transition.
And a company alone, it cannot
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do that, right?
So you really need all players
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around the table to talk about
what you're willing to do, what
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you're not willing to do.
And again, what are the traders?
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Where is it that you compromise?
And how does the pace of change
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really look like?
Because sometimes we were
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talking about courage.
There's also something very
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humbling about the pace of
change.
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00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,680
You can accelerate to a degree,
but the pace of change is the
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00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,080
pace of change.
You cannot go faster than where
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00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,040
you can go.
And I'm realizing that also
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allows you to manage
expectations in terms of when is
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00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,920
it that we're going to arrive to
that desired outcome.
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00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,440
Excellent.
Jennifer, as we come to the
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00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:22,400
close of this episode, maybe
let's let's ask you about advice
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00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,800
that you would give to people,
particularly in the
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00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,120
sustainability domain who are
trying to create meaningful
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00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:32,760
change specifically in large and
complex organizations.
390
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,120
It's a it's a nice question.
Thank you for asking me.
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00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:44,600
I think that I would say don't
give up, don't lose hope, and
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00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,560
your work matters.
I think that it's easy to go and
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00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:56,040
work in those places where
things are easy and everything
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00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,680
is flowing because there's no
complications.
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00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,120
It takes a very special kind of
bravery to go into complex and
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complicated places and try to
change them.
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And for that, kudos to you.
Don't give up.
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Good note to end the episode on
Jennifer.
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Thank you so much for joining
us.
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00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:19,720
Thanks to.
You for inviting me?
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00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,040
I really appreciate it.
No.
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00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:22,800
Thank you.
I mean what I'm taking away from
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00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,000
this episode is that
sustainability narrative or or
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00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,760
leadership is not about easy or
clean answers.
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00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,040
It is about actually doing the
transformation work from within,
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00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,360
making this practical
trade-offs, building credibility
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00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:40,560
through evidence, and as you
said, you know, staying focused
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on long term value creation.
So it's been a great episode on
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00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,080
our side.
Thanks again for being with us,
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00:25:46,360 --> 00:25:49,040
and thanks to everyone of you
listening to Sustainability
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00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,080
Forward.
You've been listening to
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00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,440
Sustainability Forward.
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00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,880
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414
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415
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416
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Forward the Podcast.
Chief Sustainability Officer, Philip Morris International
Jennifer Motles joined Philip Morris International (PMI) in 2015 and has served as the company’s Chief Sustainability Officer (CSO) since October 2020. In this role, she leads PMI’s sustainability agenda as a core driver of business strategy and long‑term value creation. She oversees the design and deployment of PMI’s Value Plan 2030+, grounded in a double‑materiality assessment and structured around six strategic priorities: Consumers, Circularity, Own Workforce, Workers in the Value Chain, Climate, and Nature. Her leadership is central to how PMI embeds sustainability into its long‑term business strategy, driving sustainable business through value creation.
During her tenure at PMI, Jennifer has played a pivotal role in shaping the company’s statement of purpose and expanding its sustainability strategy through Value Plan 2030+.
Jennifer holds a Juris Doctor degree from Universidad de Chile—Escuela de Derecho and a Master of Laws degree from University of California, Berkeley School of Law.
