June 24, 2025
Bread, Soil, and the Climate Story We Can All Taste
What does a loaf of sourdough have to do with fighting climate change?
In this episode, we sit down with Maddie Hamann, co-founder of PACHA Bread, to explore the unexpected connections between regenerative farming, food allergies, zero-waste packaging—and the future of sustainability.
Maddie shares how she made the leap from ocean science to sourdough, and what it’s really like building a purpose-driven business while raising a young family. We talk about sourcing from regenerative farms, designing compostable packaging, and why your grocery list might be one of the most powerful climate tools you have.
It’s a grounded, inspiring look at how climate action can begin right in your kitchen.
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Welcome to Sustainability
Forward where we explore bold
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ideas, real solutions and the
people driving change for a
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better, greener future.
I'm Rishi, your host, and with
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me, as always, is my Co host
Carmen.
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Welcome, Carmen.
Rishi great to be here today for
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a very interesting episode.
Absolutely.
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I mean, we have been talking
about climate change for a
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while.
Many of our episodes have
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centred around, you know, that
topic.
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But when we think of climate
change, what, what usually comes
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to mind, usually it's fossil
fuels, cars, electricity, heavy
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emitters in the industry.
But there's another major
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contributor that often flies
under the radar, and that is our
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global food system.
What do you think?
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Yeah, good point, Richie.
So food, agriculture and broader
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land use accounts something
around 20 to 30% of all
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greenhouses emissions.
And this goes from how we grow
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food to how we transport it, how
to deal with waste.
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So our food systems are shaping
the future of the planet in the
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ways we readily talk about.
Yeah, but there's a there's
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silver lining here.
And the hopeful part is that the
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way we feed the world doesn't
just have to be the part of the
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problem, it can also be part of
the solution.
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According to Drawdown Food,
there are two powerful levers in
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in this area. 1 is cutting
emissions and the other is
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healing the land through better
soil health and ecosystem
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restoration.
And this brings to a questions
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that is probably the base of
this episode.
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Is there a way to eat food that
heals the planet?
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So today we have a guest to talk
about it and she will tell us a
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little bit more about this one
loaf at a time.
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So we have today Mehdi Upman.
She's the Co Founder Director of
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Marketing at Patch of Bread,
where she applies an extensive
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scientific background to drive
the company's mission of
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promoting regenerative
agriculture and sustainability.
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Many year olds PhD from the
street institution of Asian
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Graphic, but she transitioned
from the field of her science to
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marketing in order to make a
direct impact on common change
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to business.
Her dedication to environmental
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sustainability is at the heart
of bacha marketing strategies,
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ensuring that the company's
values are reflected in every
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aspect of the brand.
So, Maddie, welcome to the show.
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Nice to be here, thanks for
having me.
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Maddie Carne has given us a
quick view of your career, your
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bio.
But we are, we are obviously a
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very curious bunch, so we'd like
to know how you went from being
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our science PhD to sustainable
entrepreneurship and how
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sustainability became central to
that life and career.
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Yeah, well, I would say actually
that the sustainability being
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central to my life and career is
kind of what drove the shift.
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I, I don't know, my parents, I
think it start started with
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them.
They always composted.
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My dad's an avid gardener and we
spent time out in nature walking
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through the woods, and I'm just
enjoying the natural beauty of
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the earth.
And I, yeah, a lot of my
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academic career when I was young
was driven more by like, OK, I'm
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really good at math and science
and like, I should, not
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everybody is.
So I should put my skills to
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good use.
Like I've, I've been given that
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gift, so I should use it for,
you know, making life better for
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everyone.
And that drove me to, you know,
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first I got a pH or sorry, I got
my bachelor's degree in civil
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engineering.
And then kind of in, in my
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studies of civil engineering, I
was realizing like how much, how
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much of the just like just
construction, how much of an
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issue the materials that we use
are.
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And I started to started to
learn more about that.
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And I also learned, I learned
about fluid mechanics.
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And when I graduated, I had
learned about the field of
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oceanography.
And I thought, wow, OK, so I
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must, if I like, if we're going
to do something about climate
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change, we must need to
understand the problem better.
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And so I want to be a part of
that.
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Like I want to go and use my
math and science skills to
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understand and help humanity
steer the ship through what's
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coming.
And I had an amazing time and
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grad school was super
interesting to learn about the
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physics of the ocean and, and
all their aspects of
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oceanography as well.
But in my studies, I realized,
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like, wow, we know a lot and
there's a lot we don't know, but
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we certainly know enough to
start making some changes in the
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way that we are living and the
way we are providing goods to
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the growing population on earth.
And yeah, it just seemed to me
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that knowledge wasn't the thing
that was going to drive those
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changes.
And even just a couple of years
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into my degree, I, I've had the
feeling that I would, I would
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shift somewhat not to being just
like a straight researcher, but
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maybe being more in like the
science communications or being
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at the intersection of art and
science or some, some piece that
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would start like engaging with
the populace.
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And, and then about a year
before I finished my PHDI met my
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partner, Adam, Adam Heiner.
He is, he's a serial
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entrepreneur.
And now we joke that he's a
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pseudo serial entrepreneur.
That's a bad joke.
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Buckley does a pseudo serial,
but he has owned and operated
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multiple businesses.
And he at the time he was
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involved with his most recent
company, which is called Buch
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Craft.
It's a hard kombucha.
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It's pretty well known out here
in California, but it's probably
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not global.
And he was basically working
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with their farmers.
And his role had, you know, he
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had kind of like hired himself
out of all of the other
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positions that he had worked for
the company.
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Somebody else was doing that
stuff.
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And so he was focusing on doing
the impact and using buch crafts
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dollars to find better ways of
sourcing the ingredients and
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working with farmers to improve
their farming methods.
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And, and I started learning
about regenerative agriculture,
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which is what we're going to
talk about, I think today and I.
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Yeah, I just regenerative
agriculture.
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Let us understand a little bit
more about it.
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Yeah.
So essentially at, at the heart
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of it, regenerative agriculture
is agriculture that cares for
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the health of the soil.
And there's a lot of, there's a
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few different aspects that
really make regenerative
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agriculture what it is.
But essentially when you take
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care of the soil, you have a
healthy thrive.
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I mean, everybody knows the
difference, right, Between a
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handful of dirt, just like, you
know, stuff that just blows away
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in the wind versus soil, like
black, moist, like just stuff
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that you're like, Oh yeah,
that's good.
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That's gonna make a good tomato.
And I, I say that not maybe not
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everybody knows that difference,
but it's a yeah, the black soil.
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What the difference is that it
has a whole ecosystem living
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inside of it.
There is from all the levels,
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microorganisms, worms,
nematodes, like lots of
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different creatures that are,
that are actually carbon based
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life forms that that build this,
this ecosystem that has air and
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water.
And what happens when your soil
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is really healthy is that one,
like the plants are really
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healthy.
The, there is a balance in the
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ecosystem, the soil, the soil
ecosystem and the ecosystem that
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includes the plants and the
pollinators and the different
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things that contribute to the
ecosystem.
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There's a balance that allows
for resilience.
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So pests tend to not be able to
take over because there's
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there's the pest, but then
there's also the thing that eats
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the pest.
So you have much smaller issues
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with, with disease in your, in
your crops and the water and
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also the water is able to
penetrate in the soil.
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So the like it's like a sponge,
right?
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If you can imagine like taking a
handful of dirt and pouring
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water on it, like the water is
just going to like wash the dirt
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away.
Versus if you have a handful of
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soil and you pour water on it,
the water soaks into the soil.
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That's what happens when you
have healthy soil on your, on
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your farm.
So you can use more effectively.
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It prevents flooding or or
diminishes flooding, which is a
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big issue out here in California
and in different places in the
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world.
Yeah.
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And then also there's a balance
that includes animals and
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animals that fertilize the soil
with with their manure.
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And yeah, there's a lot of
pieces that go into it, but
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essentially it's like it's a
healthy ecosystem that supports
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the soil and make sure that the
soil is really healthy.
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But it's healthy for the soil,
it becomes carbon sequestration,
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also medium if our diversity,
peer diversity yells the
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nutrients of the food.
So there is a lot of good
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effects.
So probably This is why it
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matters to talk about the
culture.
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And I love your example of the
way of putting water on it.
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Something that we see during
summer, for example, in this
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part of the world in Europe
where we have 2-3 months of no
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rain, is when we go to September
and heavy rain starts and all
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the rain flushes away.
It's not the assorted in the
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ground, in the soil.
And this is one of the reason
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because the soil cannot keep
that amount of water whole in
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the southern anymore.
So let's stop then on the patch
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approach and why it belongs to
this regenerative agriculture.
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So what are you doing in this
kind of space?
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Yeah, So kind of wrapping up
that story, I, I, I after seeing
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my partner doing what he was
doing with Butch Craft, he was
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thinking of.
So we were, we were making this
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buckwheat bread and we had been
making it for a couple of years
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and it's delicious.
It's gluten free, it's made with
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just a few simple ingredients
and it feels like really
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nourishing in your body.
And he wanted to turn that into
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like he wanted to give people
access to this bread, which is
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life changing.
If you're, you know, if you're
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not able to eat gluten or some
of the additives that get put
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into bread, it's like, Oh my
gosh, I can eat this two
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ingredients.
Are you kidding me?
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And so he wanted to start a
business with it.
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And for me, I just realized that
we had an opportunity to use
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business to transform acreage,
like to grow buckwheat
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specifically for the purpose of
making our bread and to help
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farmers implement regenerative
practices on their land.
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So buckwheat is a, it's kind of
inherently A regenerative crop.
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It's it's used.
So there's actually like a lot
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of buckwheat farming.
A lot of buckwheat is grown in
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the United States, but not much
of it is farmed in the sense
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that it's not harvested because
it's used as a, it's used as a,
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a cover crop.
So they'll plant it in between
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crop rotations just to have
roots in the soil and to keep
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that soil from blowing away in
the wind.
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Like they just want, they just
want to keep the soil healthy.
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And most of the time they'll
right after the buckwheat
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flowers, they'll till it back
into the soil so that it fixes
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nitrogen and then they'll plant
something else.
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But you can, you can actually
harvest the buckwheat as well.
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And one of the really nice
things about that is it's
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usually an additional crop for
the farmer because it has a
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short grow season.
They can often kind of slot it
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in between their spring and
their fall crops and they're
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able to have a third rotation of
crops.
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And, and get the benefit of the
buckwheat is it's, it's not
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wheat, first of all, it's, it's
this really beautiful plant.
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It has like these little white
flowers and sort of broader
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leaves and it just sprawls out
all over the field.
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And it attracts a multitude of
different pollinators.
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There's like all kinds of
beetles and different bugs that
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come to pollinate the to
pollinate the buckwheat.
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And it fixes nitrogen.
And it just is like it in and of
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itself is so good for the soil,
even if you grow it on a
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conventional farm.
But we go a step beyond that.
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We, we're certified regenerative
through an organization called
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the Soil and Climate Initiative.
And essentially what we do is
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for every acre of buckwheat that
we contract for the year, like
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we say, OK, we're gonna need
1200 acres of buckwheat this
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year.
And for every acre that we
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contract, we pay a fee that goes
to the farmers to help them
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actually transition into
regenerative methods.
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So yeah, our business is like
the more bread we sell, the more
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acres of regenerative farm are
created in the country.
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00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,920
It's very, very interesting.
Like like you said in your joke
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earlier, buckwheat is a pseudo
cereal.
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It doesn't grow on the tip of a
grass like most cereals, right?
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That's the that's the interest.
But it's used like a cereal.
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That's why it's a pseudo cereal
now.
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So this is kind of the front end
of bacha, I guess you know the
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regenerative agriculture where
the ingredients come from.
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Let's maybe look at the the
packaging side and your
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contribution to the zero waste
mission right here in in Europe,
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00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,880
there's a sustainability
movement is at it's peak.
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That's what we feel like, right,
When we go buy bread in in a
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local market, of course, the
focus is on, you know, on the
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00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,240
taste, the ingredients, but also
on the packaging, right.
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It's typically wrapped in a
piece of paper and that's it.
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Then no plastics usually.
Yeah.
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00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,720
From a supermarket, that's a
different question.
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00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,040
But usually you just get the
loaf wrapped in a piece of
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paper.
That's it, right.
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00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,200
Tell us a little bit about what
you are doing with respect to,
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you know, innovative compostable
packaging, things like that.
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Yeah.
So again, like our company, we
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founded it, we started it
because we want to, we want to
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be doing business in a different
and better way than we see
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happening here in America.
And so from the beginning, we've
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had, we've committed to having
fully home, home compostable
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film.
And yeah, so we're all of our
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bread comes in a home
compostable film bag that's made
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from potato starch and it can
break down in a home compost in
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like 90 to 120 days, depending
on how good you are at
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composting.
And then are the closures the
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00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,480
little, like the little clip
that keeps the bag shut is
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actually made of cardboard
instead of the plastic that you
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00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,680
typically see on it on a bread
package.
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And yeah, we've estimated that
we've that we've saved like
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18,000 lbs of plastic from going
into production since we founded
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the company, which is crazy to
think about.
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00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,440
When was that, Mehdi?
When did you when did you found
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00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,800
your company?
We started in 2020, right, Right
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when the pandemic was yeah,
yeah, taking off.
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Got it.
Was fun stuff but yeah, we've
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sold a little over half a
million loaves of bread since
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then.
Wow yeah.
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Interesting.
And you know with the with the
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with the compostable packaging,
it's it's it's a challenging
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space.
The plastic just performs in a
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00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,560
certain way that's very hard to
mimic with something that will
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00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,560
break down right.
Like we would love to sell our
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00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:43,360
bread and paper, but we just, we
can't because of the way that we
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00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,720
are selling, like because we're
selling into supermarkets.
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00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,320
And in the frozen section, it's
just a different model.
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00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:54,960
It's not like the local, local
bakery model of things, but a
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00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,800
lot of products that would like
to use compostable film, the
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00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,280
it's really hard to get a
barrier layer.
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00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:08,120
So there's like oxygen can
exchange, but because of because
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our product is frozen and it's
kind of stands up well to
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00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,040
fluctuations in temperature.
Like you can freeze that thought
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00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,200
a couple times and it's, it's
totally fine.
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00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,640
Not every products like that,
but then also compostable
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00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,400
options are so much more
expensive than the petroleum
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00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,960
based plastics.
And I think that's something
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00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,000
that a lot of companies run into
is they, they start off and
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00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,760
they're like, OK, well, we'll
just, we don't have the money
287
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,680
right now to pay for compostable
options.
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00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,200
But once we hit this certain
mark, once we get here, we'll
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00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,880
start using compostable.
But like you never get there.
290
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,280
Like you never get to a point
with your company where you're
291
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,760
like, oh, we just have lots of
extra money.
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00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,120
Not never, but it takes a long
time.
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00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,200
And so it just to transition to
a package that's.
294
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,040
Four or five times more
expensive than the petroleum
295
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:11,000
based alternative is a big pill
for most companies to swallow,
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00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,960
so we just built it into the
company's DNA from the
297
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,280
beginning.
Yeah, this brings me to to a
298
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,080
question.
So talking about food, I think
299
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,000
you need to balance as you said
a few components.
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00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,840
So he has to be secure, he has
to be accessible, yes, to be
301
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,800
sustainable and still has to
build your business case.
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00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,960
How you balancing all of these
elements remaining true to your
303
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,120
missions and what they're trying
to achieve here?
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00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:53,440
Yeah.
Well, that's a, that's an
305
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,760
interesting question.
So I would say that like the
306
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,120
best answer that I can give you
right now is that we're still,
307
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:09,520
our company was founded by, was
founded and invested in by
308
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,000
people who align with our
mission.
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00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,160
And so we, you know, we haven't
taken on large, large investment
310
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:24,720
from BC or a larger food holding
company or just a shareholder
311
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,960
that would encourage us to focus
more on profitability and less
312
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:36,440
on our mission.
So yeah, that's really probably
313
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,560
the best answer that I can give
you.
314
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,240
And also just Adam and I are
still running the company.
315
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,960
Things can change when new
leadership steps in or when a
316
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,840
player comes to the table with
different with I should
317
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:59,400
misaligned goals, yeah.
And another question, Mandy, is
318
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,720
how, how you can reach scale
with this or is it feasible to
319
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,120
reach scale considering the
resources you need, also natural
320
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:12,840
resources.
So with your raw materials, how
321
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,840
much can you scale, How quickly
can you scale this if you really
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00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:28,440
want to democratize this bread?
So right now there's right now
323
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,960
there's no, there's no issue in
sourcing the materials that we
324
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,560
need to get to the scale of
profitability.
325
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,360
It is, it is a sizable, you have
to do quite a bit of business.
326
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:43,640
Like I think we're we'll be
profitable when we're in
327
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:51,000
something like 2000 or 2500
doors and we're in about a
328
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,960
little over 1000 right now,
maybe a little bit more than
329
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,160
that.
I haven't checked those numbers
330
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,120
recently.
It's a sales side.
331
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,400
So you know, double what we're
doing right now.
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00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,520
The sourcing buckwheat is
definitely going to be a
333
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,840
challenge.
And it is certainly possible
334
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,560
that there will be a time when
we're like doubling growth and
335
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,360
we're, you know, three or four
times as large as we are right
336
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,720
now when we won't be able to
scale the regenerative side of
337
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:30,960
things in a single year.
But the what's, what's really
338
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,960
encouraging is that we have one
that this crop is actually a, a,
339
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,280
a lot of farmers would love to
be growing buckwheat.
340
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,640
And the problem is that there's
not much of A market for
341
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,880
buckwheat in the United States
like in other countries in in
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00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,520
Asia, buckwheat.
In Russia, buckwheat is a
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00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,400
staple.
People eat buckwheat and they
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00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,520
know about it.
They want it.
345
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,160
There's a demand, so people grow
it.
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00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,480
So as we expand the market here
in the States, it actually is
347
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,120
enabling farmers to grow
something they would like to be
348
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,920
growing.
And the other piece that is
349
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,840
really working in our favor is
that we actually work with one
350
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,480
of our farmers.
His name's John Stropus and he
351
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,880
owns a like a, a food.
What do you call that?
352
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,560
It's like an ingredients
company.
353
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,640
And he actually goes out and
talks to the farmers in his
354
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,800
network and says, hey, I need to
I need to grow more buckwheat
355
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,720
for my client Pacha.
And if you want to jump on the
356
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320
jump on all you have to do is
get certified through this
357
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:49,720
regenerative certification.
Now it is kind of a big ask for
358
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,840
a farmer to do things
differently than he's done then,
359
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,760
you know, like most of the
farmers, this is the way my dad
360
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,360
taught me how to do it.
And this is the way that his dad
361
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:04,440
did it before him.
I think like it's and it's for
362
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,320
someone outside of their
industry to come in and say,
363
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,080
hey, I think you should start
growing your food
364
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,480
regeneratively.
You know, like I'll buy your
365
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,080
buckwheat from you if you grow
regeneratively.
366
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,640
And they're like, why?
Like that sounds like a lot of
367
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,000
work.
I'm not, I don't want to do
368
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,560
that.
But we have on our side, on our
369
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,800
team, we've got a really
passionate farmer who speaks
370
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,440
their language and he says, hey,
you should do this.
371
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,480
And like, here's here's all the
reasons why.
372
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,760
And the main one being that it's
going to be better for your
373
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,320
health, it's going to be better
for your profitability.
374
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,200
You're going to be able to,
you're going to be able to sell
375
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,200
this product and reduce the
amount of money you spend on
376
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,840
chemical fertilizers and
pesticides.
377
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,000
And like, this is gonna be
better for you.
378
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,440
And I've done it.
And here's like, here's my track
379
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,120
record and I can help you.
So that's a totally different
380
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,440
conversation than someone coming
in and just being like, hey,
381
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,000
you're regenerative agriculture,
you should do it.
382
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,560
And yeah, actually that's one
piece that we didn't discuss
383
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,280
when we're talking about
regenerative agriculture.
384
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,520
So one of them, like one of the
primary goals of regenerative
385
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,160
agriculture is to reduce and
eventually eliminate all
386
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,200
synthetic inputs.
So any kind of pesticide, any
387
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,400
kind of fertilizer that's made
out of petroleum, which by the
388
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,600
way, in case you didn't know,
all of these things are made out
389
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,960
of petroleum.
So, and a lot of like the
390
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,800
pattern that happens in the food
system is that the, the chemical
391
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,400
companies are put are saying
like, OK, here's the, here's the
392
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,720
formula, here's the, Oh my gosh,
what is it?
393
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,120
Roundup?
Here's the herbicide that you'll
394
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,800
need to get your get the best
yields out of these crops.
395
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,680
And so here's your fertilizer,
here's your pesticides.
396
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,880
And this is like, this is how
you'll maximize your yields.
397
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,720
And you do that for a few
seasons and then you see the
398
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,680
results and you're like, OK, I
got to keep doing this.
399
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,480
Meanwhile, the soil is being
depleted every year and you need
400
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,120
more fertilizer every year to
make the same yield that you
401
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,040
made the year prior.
And so there's just like they're
402
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,080
getting getting sucked into this
loop.
403
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,960
It's hard to see the way, it's
hard to see the way out of it.
404
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,800
But what regenerative
agriculture does is it it
405
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,160
eliminates the need for those
synthetics and then farmers
406
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,640
don't have to spend so much
money to grow their crops and
407
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,480
they can be more profitable.
It's like the whole system that
408
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,160
regenerative agriculture
supports the entire system.
409
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,280
Everyone who's involved from the
smallest levels up to the up to
410
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,640
the, you know, the, the farmers
who are holding the large plots
411
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,280
of land, like everyone can
benefit from it, except for
412
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,600
maybe the big chemical companies
who want to sell their
413
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:13,800
petroleum, some fertilizers.
Maybe it's a good time to ask
414
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,560
where, where, where can people
find your bread?
415
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,880
So we are currently, we're in
the US, You can buy our bread
416
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,080
directly from our website,
livepacha.com and you can also
417
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,960
find US nationwide at Whole
Foods.
418
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,680
And then we're in a few other
chains that are regional.
419
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,880
Natural Grocers carries our
products, New Seasons, Gelsons,
420
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,120
Erawan, some smaller, some
smaller chains.
421
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,480
If you are would like to buy our
bread at a store, you can go
422
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,040
onto our website and look at our
store locator to find a location
423
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,040
near you.
Next, next time we're in the US,
424
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,800
we'll go to a Whole Foods to get
your read.
425
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,640
So, so where, where do you go
from here?
426
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,240
What's the vision in terms of
the company?
427
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,960
Where do you think regenerative
and sustainable food business is
428
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,840
going?
If you could talk a little bit
429
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,800
about that.
Yeah, well, gosh, there's
430
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,560
definitely a movement of
regenerative food happening
431
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,240
right now.
You know, it's not as so like
432
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:30,000
regenerative is still not a term
that most consumers are familiar
433
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,120
with and it's not a term that
helps sell a product at the
434
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,480
moment, unfortunately, because
people don't know about it, they
435
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,600
they're not willing to pay a
premium price for a product that
436
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,840
has regenerative ingredients.
But if you go to the food Expos
437
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,440
like if Expo W, which is one of
the biggest Consumer Packaged
438
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,080
Goods shows in the world, there
is, you know, people are talking
439
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,240
about it.
There's lots of, there's panels,
440
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,080
there are groupings of companies
that are, that are working
441
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,560
together.
There are, there are
442
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,280
certifications that are
emerging.
443
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,440
It feels very much like the the
food industry is realizing this
444
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,120
is where it's going and starting
to pay attention.
445
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,200
We are Pacha is a member of a
coalition called the Regen
446
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,040
Brands Coalition.
It just started this year, but
447
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,280
it's a group of about 40 brands
that are all that all have at
448
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,080
least one certified regenerative
product.
449
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,320
And you know, we are what we're
really working on is like, OK,
450
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,440
how do we collectively as
brands, how do we amplify our
451
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,920
voice?
How do we make the how do we get
452
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,560
through to the people who make
decisions about what goes on to
453
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,240
the grocery shelf?
Like how do we communicate with
454
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920
them about the importance of
regenerative?
455
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,400
You know, one of the other
really cool things that we have
456
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,360
seen in our journey is that
there are like, like with Whole
457
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,480
Foods, for example, they really
care like they are, they're,
458
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,240
they are, they're very strict
about their use of the word
459
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,280
regenerative.
And if you're not actually
460
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,160
regenerative, they're not going
to let you put it on your
461
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,400
package and sell it at a Whole
Foods store.
462
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:27,040
And then also, you know, we, we
went from having no distribution
463
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,440
in Whole Foods to being a
nationwide brand.
464
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,760
And that's not, that's not a
common occurrence.
465
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,520
It does happen, but many brands
start in one or two regions.
466
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,400
You know, they're just in
Southern California or they're
467
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,040
just in the Northeast or
whatever.
468
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,720
But really like in the
conversation that we had with
469
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,600
our buyer, the one who decides
what goes on the frozen bread
470
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,440
shelf, I'm pretty sure she
picked us up because we're, our
471
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,160
packaging is compostable.
Like she was like, this is a
472
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,400
bread brand who's doing
something that I've heard other
473
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,720
brands say they can't do.
All right, let's bring them in.
474
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,800
Let's let these other brands see
what can be done and hopefully
475
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,600
follow in their footsteps.
So there's some some there's
476
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,480
really good traction, and
there's also a lot of work to be
477
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,360
done.
Yeah.
478
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,400
You know, like in the United
States, 1% of farmland is
479
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,440
certified organic, and that's
not regenerative, that's just
480
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,200
organic.
You can still use like certain
481
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,560
organic pesticides and
fertilizers and whatnot on those
482
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,040
fields.
Yeah.
483
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:52,240
And so one of the, one of the
things that's kind of a TBD
484
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,640
within the regenerative space is
figuring out whether the
485
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,760
definition of regenerative
agriculture will say that you
486
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,640
must be organic before you can
be regenerative.
487
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,520
And I, I don't know where that's
gonna land.
488
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,000
There's a good argument both
ways.
489
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,440
You know, on one side, Yeah, it
really feels like if something
490
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,520
is regenerative, you shouldn't
be putting synthetic pesticides
491
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,800
on it, right?
Like Roundup and regenerative
492
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,040
just like that.
Doesn't seem like they go in the
493
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,640
same sentence.
However, if we want to be you
494
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,720
like fully utilize regenerative
agriculture for the climate,
495
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,120
yeah, for the climate change
buffering that it can provide,
496
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,680
we can't just start
transitioning the 1% of
497
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,760
farmland.
We need to be transitioning the
498
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,920
99% which is still
conventionally farmed.
499
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,120
So that one, I don't know how, I
don't know how to answer like
500
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,440
the, the trajectory in that
sense.
501
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,320
But I, I think like it's gonna
take five years at least for the
502
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,040
regenerative, the term
regenerative to really permeate
503
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,760
the consumer awareness in a way
that makes it like, OK, I'm
504
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,440
gonna put that on my package, on
the front of my package because
505
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,360
it's gonna get a consumer's
attention.
506
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,920
I think that's at least five
years away.
507
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:28,080
And but I see that happening and
I definitely see more brands and
508
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,480
investors and people who are
aware that our food system is
509
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,480
not, you know, there are there.
It's estimated that we have
510
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,960
something like 60 harvests left
on a lot of the conventionally
511
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,400
farmed land in across the world.
Like that's like 30 years.
512
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,800
If we keep farming the land in
the way we're doing it, we're
513
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,400
going to lose all of our
topsoil.
514
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,080
It's just going to like, we're
going to have another decibel on
515
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:55,480
our hands.
It's just going to blow away,
516
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,080
which is crazy.
It's like, it's crazy, but it,
517
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,400
it also doesn't have to happen.
And it's, you can quite rapidly
518
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:11,760
actually improve the, the, the
soil quality.
519
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,680
And you know, I don't think
we've said this directly in like
520
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:19,560
in this conversation, we've kind
of danced around it.
521
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,280
But when the soil is healthy,
like I said, it's got all these
522
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,920
carbon based life forms in it.
Soil is a huge carbon sink.
523
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,400
It's has more carbon sink
potential than growing trees
524
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:40,960
like reforestation is, is not as
good as building topsoil over
525
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,800
the, the amount of land that we
have transitioned to farmland.
526
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,680
It's it's a better solution,
which is really cool.
527
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,400
And yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
528
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,160
I mean, I think this is a topic
where there are probably
529
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,760
multiple opinions on where the
industry is going, where the
530
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,080
practice is going, whether,
whether it's, you know, really
531
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,320
doing what it's claiming to be
doing.
532
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,280
But it's very, very good to see,
you know, that a brand like
533
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:12,880
yours is, is making a
difference.
534
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,120
It is being recognized by
organizations like Whole Foods
535
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,320
and you know, for, for doing all
the, all the right things right.
536
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,800
And, and it creates a healthy
challenge.
537
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:29,200
Mehdi, this has been a, a very
insightful episode for us,
538
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,360
particularly because you know,
you started the brand in 2020.
539
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,400
You've come, you know, all the
way sold more than 500,000 units
540
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,200
and, and, and still you know,
there is a huge growth, growth
541
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,400
trajectory in front of you and
all the while doing the right
542
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,440
things for the environment and
for, for your consumers.
543
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,440
So so thank you for sharing,
sharing all your experience and
544
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,360
your journey with us today.
Yeah, absolutely.
545
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,000
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
546
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,360
Absolutely.
To our audience, thanks for
547
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:04,880
listening to Sustainability
Forward.
548
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,480
If you found today's episode
valuable, please subscribe,
549
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,360
leave us a review, and share it
with someone who cares about the
550
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,240
future, about sustainability.
Until next time, keep pushing
551
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:17,320
sustainability forward.
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,760
Welcome to Sustainability
Forward where we explore bold
2
00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:16,440
ideas, real solutions and the
people driving change for a
3
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,560
better, greener future.
I'm Rishi, your host, and with
4
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,800
me, as always, is my Co host
Carmen.
5
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,520
Welcome, Carmen.
Rishi great to be here today for
6
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,760
a very interesting episode.
Absolutely.
7
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,160
I mean, we have been talking
about climate change for a
8
00:00:33,160 --> 00:00:35,920
while.
Many of our episodes have
9
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,000
centred around, you know, that
topic.
10
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,000
But when we think of climate
change, what, what usually comes
11
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:48,760
to mind, usually it's fossil
fuels, cars, electricity, heavy
12
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,200
emitters in the industry.
But there's another major
13
00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,760
contributor that often flies
under the radar, and that is our
14
00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,120
global food system.
What do you think?
15
00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:06,240
Yeah, good point, Richie.
So food, agriculture and broader
16
00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:11,560
land use accounts something
around 20 to 30% of all
17
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,640
greenhouses emissions.
And this goes from how we grow
18
00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,320
food to how we transport it, how
to deal with waste.
19
00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,520
So our food systems are shaping
the future of the planet in the
20
00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,880
ways we readily talk about.
Yeah, but there's a there's
21
00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,520
silver lining here.
And the hopeful part is that the
22
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,440
way we feed the world doesn't
just have to be the part of the
23
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,360
problem, it can also be part of
the solution.
24
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,320
According to Drawdown Food,
there are two powerful levers in
25
00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:46,760
in this area. 1 is cutting
emissions and the other is
26
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,160
healing the land through better
soil health and ecosystem
27
00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,920
restoration.
And this brings to a questions
28
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,000
that is probably the base of
this episode.
29
00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,840
Is there a way to eat food that
heals the planet?
30
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:10,160
So today we have a guest to talk
about it and she will tell us a
31
00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,000
little bit more about this one
loaf at a time.
32
00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,120
So we have today Mehdi Upman.
She's the Co Founder Director of
33
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,120
Marketing at Patch of Bread,
where she applies an extensive
34
00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,120
scientific background to drive
the company's mission of
35
00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,000
promoting regenerative
agriculture and sustainability.
36
00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:35,240
Many year olds PhD from the
street institution of Asian
37
00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,920
Graphic, but she transitioned
from the field of her science to
38
00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,440
marketing in order to make a
direct impact on common change
39
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,720
to business.
Her dedication to environmental
40
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,040
sustainability is at the heart
of bacha marketing strategies,
41
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,560
ensuring that the company's
values are reflected in every
42
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,840
aspect of the brand.
So, Maddie, welcome to the show.
43
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:00,600
Nice to be here, thanks for
having me.
44
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:08,080
Maddie Carne has given us a
quick view of your career, your
45
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,600
bio.
But we are, we are obviously a
46
00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,200
very curious bunch, so we'd like
to know how you went from being
47
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,280
our science PhD to sustainable
entrepreneurship and how
48
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,600
sustainability became central to
that life and career.
49
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:32,200
Yeah, well, I would say actually
that the sustainability being
50
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,280
central to my life and career is
kind of what drove the shift.
51
00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,400
I, I don't know, my parents, I
think it start started with
52
00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,680
them.
They always composted.
53
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,920
My dad's an avid gardener and we
spent time out in nature walking
54
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,320
through the woods, and I'm just
enjoying the natural beauty of
55
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:59,520
the earth.
And I, yeah, a lot of my
56
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,360
academic career when I was young
was driven more by like, OK, I'm
57
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,840
really good at math and science
and like, I should, not
58
00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,040
everybody is.
So I should put my skills to
59
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,360
good use.
Like I've, I've been given that
60
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,480
gift, so I should use it for,
you know, making life better for
61
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,360
everyone.
And that drove me to, you know,
62
00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,280
first I got a pH or sorry, I got
my bachelor's degree in civil
63
00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:31,720
engineering.
And then kind of in, in my
64
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:38,360
studies of civil engineering, I
was realizing like how much, how
65
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,120
much of the just like just
construction, how much of an
66
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,360
issue the materials that we use
are.
67
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,800
And I started to started to
learn more about that.
68
00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,000
And I also learned, I learned
about fluid mechanics.
69
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,720
And when I graduated, I had
learned about the field of
70
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,480
oceanography.
And I thought, wow, OK, so I
71
00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,040
must, if I like, if we're going
to do something about climate
72
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,640
change, we must need to
understand the problem better.
73
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:12,600
And so I want to be a part of
that.
74
00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,440
Like I want to go and use my
math and science skills to
75
00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:22,440
understand and help humanity
steer the ship through what's
76
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,160
coming.
And I had an amazing time and
77
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,360
grad school was super
interesting to learn about the
78
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,240
physics of the ocean and, and
all their aspects of
79
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:39,160
oceanography as well.
But in my studies, I realized,
80
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:45,800
like, wow, we know a lot and
there's a lot we don't know, but
81
00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,360
we certainly know enough to
start making some changes in the
82
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:56,560
way that we are living and the
way we are providing goods to
83
00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:02,280
the growing population on earth.
And yeah, it just seemed to me
84
00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:05,640
that knowledge wasn't the thing
that was going to drive those
85
00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,080
changes.
And even just a couple of years
86
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:14,000
into my degree, I, I've had the
feeling that I would, I would
87
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,840
shift somewhat not to being just
like a straight researcher, but
88
00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:22,080
maybe being more in like the
science communications or being
89
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,800
at the intersection of art and
science or some, some piece that
90
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,600
would start like engaging with
the populace.
91
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,480
And, and then about a year
before I finished my PHDI met my
92
00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,720
partner, Adam, Adam Heiner.
He is, he's a serial
93
00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,280
entrepreneur.
And now we joke that he's a
94
00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:47,200
pseudo serial entrepreneur.
That's a bad joke.
95
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:53,240
Buckley does a pseudo serial,
but he has owned and operated
96
00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:58,000
multiple businesses.
And he at the time he was
97
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,320
involved with his most recent
company, which is called Buch
98
00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,240
Craft.
It's a hard kombucha.
99
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,960
It's pretty well known out here
in California, but it's probably
100
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:12,360
not global.
And he was basically working
101
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,320
with their farmers.
And his role had, you know, he
102
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,360
had kind of like hired himself
out of all of the other
103
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:20,160
positions that he had worked for
the company.
104
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,040
Somebody else was doing that
stuff.
105
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:27,400
And so he was focusing on doing
the impact and using buch crafts
106
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:33,520
dollars to find better ways of
sourcing the ingredients and
107
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,400
working with farmers to improve
their farming methods.
108
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,200
And, and I started learning
about regenerative agriculture,
109
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:47,160
which is what we're going to
talk about, I think today and I.
110
00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,080
Yeah, I just regenerative
agriculture.
111
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,200
Let us understand a little bit
more about it.
112
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,280
Yeah.
So essentially at, at the heart
113
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:05,440
of it, regenerative agriculture
is agriculture that cares for
114
00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,120
the health of the soil.
And there's a lot of, there's a
115
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,200
few different aspects that
really make regenerative
116
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:16,040
agriculture what it is.
But essentially when you take
117
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,960
care of the soil, you have a
healthy thrive.
118
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,320
I mean, everybody knows the
difference, right, Between a
119
00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,240
handful of dirt, just like, you
know, stuff that just blows away
120
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:34,240
in the wind versus soil, like
black, moist, like just stuff
121
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that you're like, Oh yeah,
that's good.
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That's gonna make a good tomato.
And I, I say that not maybe not
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everybody knows that difference,
but it's a yeah, the black soil.
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What the difference is that it
has a whole ecosystem living
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inside of it.
There is from all the levels,
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microorganisms, worms,
nematodes, like lots of
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different creatures that are,
that are actually carbon based
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life forms that that build this,
this ecosystem that has air and
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water.
And what happens when your soil
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is really healthy is that one,
like the plants are really
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healthy.
The, there is a balance in the
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ecosystem, the soil, the soil
ecosystem and the ecosystem that
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includes the plants and the
pollinators and the different
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things that contribute to the
ecosystem.
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There's a balance that allows
for resilience.
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So pests tend to not be able to
take over because there's
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there's the pest, but then
there's also the thing that eats
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the pest.
So you have much smaller issues
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with, with disease in your, in
your crops and the water and
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also the water is able to
penetrate in the soil.
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So the like it's like a sponge,
right?
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If you can imagine like taking a
handful of dirt and pouring
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water on it, like the water is
just going to like wash the dirt
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away.
Versus if you have a handful of
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soil and you pour water on it,
the water soaks into the soil.
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That's what happens when you
have healthy soil on your, on
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your farm.
So you can use more effectively.
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It prevents flooding or or
diminishes flooding, which is a
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big issue out here in California
and in different places in the
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world.
Yeah.
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And then also there's a balance
that includes animals and
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animals that fertilize the soil
with with their manure.
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And yeah, there's a lot of
pieces that go into it, but
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essentially it's like it's a
healthy ecosystem that supports
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the soil and make sure that the
soil is really healthy.
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But it's healthy for the soil,
it becomes carbon sequestration,
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also medium if our diversity,
peer diversity yells the
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nutrients of the food.
So there is a lot of good
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effects.
So probably This is why it
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matters to talk about the
culture.
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And I love your example of the
way of putting water on it.
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Something that we see during
summer, for example, in this
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part of the world in Europe
where we have 2-3 months of no
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rain, is when we go to September
and heavy rain starts and all
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the rain flushes away.
It's not the assorted in the
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ground, in the soil.
And this is one of the reason
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because the soil cannot keep
that amount of water whole in
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the southern anymore.
So let's stop then on the patch
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approach and why it belongs to
this regenerative agriculture.
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So what are you doing in this
kind of space?
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Yeah, So kind of wrapping up
that story, I, I, I after seeing
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my partner doing what he was
doing with Butch Craft, he was
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thinking of.
So we were, we were making this
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buckwheat bread and we had been
making it for a couple of years
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and it's delicious.
It's gluten free, it's made with
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just a few simple ingredients
and it feels like really
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nourishing in your body.
And he wanted to turn that into
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like he wanted to give people
access to this bread, which is
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life changing.
If you're, you know, if you're
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not able to eat gluten or some
of the additives that get put
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into bread, it's like, Oh my
gosh, I can eat this two
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ingredients.
Are you kidding me?
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And so he wanted to start a
business with it.
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And for me, I just realized that
we had an opportunity to use
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business to transform acreage,
like to grow buckwheat
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specifically for the purpose of
making our bread and to help
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farmers implement regenerative
practices on their land.
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So buckwheat is a, it's kind of
inherently A regenerative crop.
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It's it's used.
So there's actually like a lot
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of buckwheat farming.
A lot of buckwheat is grown in
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the United States, but not much
of it is farmed in the sense
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that it's not harvested because
it's used as a, it's used as a,
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a cover crop.
So they'll plant it in between
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crop rotations just to have
roots in the soil and to keep
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that soil from blowing away in
the wind.
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Like they just want, they just
want to keep the soil healthy.
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And most of the time they'll
right after the buckwheat
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flowers, they'll till it back
into the soil so that it fixes
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nitrogen and then they'll plant
something else.
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But you can, you can actually
harvest the buckwheat as well.
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And one of the really nice
things about that is it's
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usually an additional crop for
the farmer because it has a
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short grow season.
They can often kind of slot it
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in between their spring and
their fall crops and they're
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able to have a third rotation of
crops.
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And, and get the benefit of the
buckwheat is it's, it's not
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wheat, first of all, it's, it's
this really beautiful plant.
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It has like these little white
flowers and sort of broader
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leaves and it just sprawls out
all over the field.
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And it attracts a multitude of
different pollinators.
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There's like all kinds of
beetles and different bugs that
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come to pollinate the to
pollinate the buckwheat.
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And it fixes nitrogen.
And it just is like it in and of
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itself is so good for the soil,
even if you grow it on a
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conventional farm.
But we go a step beyond that.
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We, we're certified regenerative
through an organization called
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the Soil and Climate Initiative.
And essentially what we do is
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for every acre of buckwheat that
we contract for the year, like
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we say, OK, we're gonna need
1200 acres of buckwheat this
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year.
And for every acre that we
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contract, we pay a fee that goes
to the farmers to help them
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actually transition into
regenerative methods.
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So yeah, our business is like
the more bread we sell, the more
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acres of regenerative farm are
created in the country.
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It's very, very interesting.
Like like you said in your joke
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earlier, buckwheat is a pseudo
cereal.
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It doesn't grow on the tip of a
grass like most cereals, right?
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That's the that's the interest.
But it's used like a cereal.
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That's why it's a pseudo cereal
now.
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So this is kind of the front end
of bacha, I guess you know the
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regenerative agriculture where
the ingredients come from.
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Let's maybe look at the the
packaging side and your
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contribution to the zero waste
mission right here in in Europe,
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there's a sustainability
movement is at it's peak.
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That's what we feel like, right,
When we go buy bread in in a
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local market, of course, the
focus is on, you know, on the
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taste, the ingredients, but also
on the packaging, right.
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It's typically wrapped in a
piece of paper and that's it.
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Then no plastics usually.
Yeah.
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From a supermarket, that's a
different question.
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But usually you just get the
loaf wrapped in a piece of
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paper.
That's it, right.
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Tell us a little bit about what
you are doing with respect to,
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you know, innovative compostable
packaging, things like that.
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Yeah.
So again, like our company, we
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founded it, we started it
because we want to, we want to
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be doing business in a different
and better way than we see
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happening here in America.
And so from the beginning, we've
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had, we've committed to having
fully home, home compostable
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film.
And yeah, so we're all of our
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bread comes in a home
compostable film bag that's made
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from potato starch and it can
break down in a home compost in
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like 90 to 120 days, depending
on how good you are at
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composting.
And then are the closures the
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little, like the little clip
that keeps the bag shut is
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actually made of cardboard
instead of the plastic that you
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typically see on it on a bread
package.
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And yeah, we've estimated that
we've that we've saved like
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18,000 lbs of plastic from going
into production since we founded
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the company, which is crazy to
think about.
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When was that, Mehdi?
When did you when did you found
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your company?
We started in 2020, right, Right
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when the pandemic was yeah,
yeah, taking off.
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Got it.
Was fun stuff but yeah, we've
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sold a little over half a
million loaves of bread since
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then.
Wow yeah.
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Interesting.
And you know with the with the
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with the compostable packaging,
it's it's it's a challenging
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space.
The plastic just performs in a
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certain way that's very hard to
mimic with something that will
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break down right.
Like we would love to sell our
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bread and paper, but we just, we
can't because of the way that we
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are selling, like because we're
selling into supermarkets.
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And in the frozen section, it's
just a different model.
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It's not like the local, local
bakery model of things, but a
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lot of products that would like
to use compostable film, the
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it's really hard to get a
barrier layer.
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So there's like oxygen can
exchange, but because of because
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our product is frozen and it's
kind of stands up well to
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fluctuations in temperature.
Like you can freeze that thought
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a couple times and it's, it's
totally fine.
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Not every products like that,
but then also compostable
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options are so much more
expensive than the petroleum
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based plastics.
And I think that's something
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that a lot of companies run into
is they, they start off and
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they're like, OK, well, we'll
just, we don't have the money
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00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,680
right now to pay for compostable
options.
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But once we hit this certain
mark, once we get here, we'll
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start using compostable.
But like you never get there.
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Like you never get to a point
with your company where you're
291
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,760
like, oh, we just have lots of
extra money.
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Not never, but it takes a long
time.
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And so it just to transition to
a package that's.
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Four or five times more
expensive than the petroleum
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based alternative is a big pill
for most companies to swallow,
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so we just built it into the
company's DNA from the
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beginning.
Yeah, this brings me to to a
298
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question.
So talking about food, I think
299
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you need to balance as you said
a few components.
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So he has to be secure, he has
to be accessible, yes, to be
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sustainable and still has to
build your business case.
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How you balancing all of these
elements remaining true to your
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missions and what they're trying
to achieve here?
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Yeah.
Well, that's a, that's an
305
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,760
interesting question.
So I would say that like the
306
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best answer that I can give you
right now is that we're still,
307
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:09,520
our company was founded by, was
founded and invested in by
308
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people who align with our
mission.
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And so we, you know, we haven't
taken on large, large investment
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from BC or a larger food holding
company or just a shareholder
311
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that would encourage us to focus
more on profitability and less
312
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on our mission.
So yeah, that's really probably
313
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the best answer that I can give
you.
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And also just Adam and I are
still running the company.
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00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,960
Things can change when new
leadership steps in or when a
316
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,840
player comes to the table with
different with I should
317
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:59,400
misaligned goals, yeah.
And another question, Mandy, is
318
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,720
how, how you can reach scale
with this or is it feasible to
319
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,120
reach scale considering the
resources you need, also natural
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resources.
So with your raw materials, how
321
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,840
much can you scale, How quickly
can you scale this if you really
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want to democratize this bread?
So right now there's right now
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00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,960
there's no, there's no issue in
sourcing the materials that we
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need to get to the scale of
profitability.
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00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,360
It is, it is a sizable, you have
to do quite a bit of business.
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Like I think we're we'll be
profitable when we're in
327
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something like 2000 or 2500
doors and we're in about a
328
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,960
little over 1000 right now,
maybe a little bit more than
329
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,160
that.
I haven't checked those numbers
330
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recently.
It's a sales side.
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So you know, double what we're
doing right now.
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The sourcing buckwheat is
definitely going to be a
333
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challenge.
And it is certainly possible
334
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that there will be a time when
we're like doubling growth and
335
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,360
we're, you know, three or four
times as large as we are right
336
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,720
now when we won't be able to
scale the regenerative side of
337
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:30,960
things in a single year.
But the what's, what's really
338
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,960
encouraging is that we have one
that this crop is actually a, a,
339
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,280
a lot of farmers would love to
be growing buckwheat.
340
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And the problem is that there's
not much of A market for
341
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,880
buckwheat in the United States
like in other countries in in
342
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,520
Asia, buckwheat.
In Russia, buckwheat is a
343
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staple.
People eat buckwheat and they
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00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:54,520
know about it.
They want it.
345
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There's a demand, so people grow
it.
346
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,480
So as we expand the market here
in the States, it actually is
347
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,120
enabling farmers to grow
something they would like to be
348
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,920
growing.
And the other piece that is
349
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,840
really working in our favor is
that we actually work with one
350
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,480
of our farmers.
His name's John Stropus and he
351
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,880
owns a like a, a food.
What do you call that?
352
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,560
It's like an ingredients
company.
353
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,640
And he actually goes out and
talks to the farmers in his
354
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,800
network and says, hey, I need to
I need to grow more buckwheat
355
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,720
for my client Pacha.
And if you want to jump on the
356
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,320
jump on all you have to do is
get certified through this
357
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:49,720
regenerative certification.
Now it is kind of a big ask for
358
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,840
a farmer to do things
differently than he's done then,
359
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,760
you know, like most of the
farmers, this is the way my dad
360
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,360
taught me how to do it.
And this is the way that his dad
361
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:04,440
did it before him.
I think like it's and it's for
362
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,320
someone outside of their
industry to come in and say,
363
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,080
hey, I think you should start
growing your food
364
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,480
regeneratively.
You know, like I'll buy your
365
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,080
buckwheat from you if you grow
regeneratively.
366
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,640
And they're like, why?
Like that sounds like a lot of
367
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,000
work.
I'm not, I don't want to do
368
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,560
that.
But we have on our side, on our
369
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,800
team, we've got a really
passionate farmer who speaks
370
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,440
their language and he says, hey,
you should do this.
371
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,480
And like, here's here's all the
reasons why.
372
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,760
And the main one being that it's
going to be better for your
373
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,320
health, it's going to be better
for your profitability.
374
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,200
You're going to be able to,
you're going to be able to sell
375
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:49,200
this product and reduce the
amount of money you spend on
376
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,840
chemical fertilizers and
pesticides.
377
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,000
And like, this is gonna be
better for you.
378
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,440
And I've done it.
And here's like, here's my track
379
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,120
record and I can help you.
So that's a totally different
380
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,440
conversation than someone coming
in and just being like, hey,
381
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,000
you're regenerative agriculture,
you should do it.
382
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,560
And yeah, actually that's one
piece that we didn't discuss
383
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,280
when we're talking about
regenerative agriculture.
384
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,520
So one of them, like one of the
primary goals of regenerative
385
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,160
agriculture is to reduce and
eventually eliminate all
386
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,200
synthetic inputs.
So any kind of pesticide, any
387
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:31,400
kind of fertilizer that's made
out of petroleum, which by the
388
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,600
way, in case you didn't know,
all of these things are made out
389
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,960
of petroleum.
So, and a lot of like the
390
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,800
pattern that happens in the food
system is that the, the chemical
391
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,400
companies are put are saying
like, OK, here's the, here's the
392
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,720
formula, here's the, Oh my gosh,
what is it?
393
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,120
Roundup?
Here's the herbicide that you'll
394
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,800
need to get your get the best
yields out of these crops.
395
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,680
And so here's your fertilizer,
here's your pesticides.
396
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,880
And this is like, this is how
you'll maximize your yields.
397
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,720
And you do that for a few
seasons and then you see the
398
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,680
results and you're like, OK, I
got to keep doing this.
399
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,480
Meanwhile, the soil is being
depleted every year and you need
400
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,120
more fertilizer every year to
make the same yield that you
401
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,040
made the year prior.
And so there's just like they're
402
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,080
getting getting sucked into this
loop.
403
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,960
It's hard to see the way, it's
hard to see the way out of it.
404
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,800
But what regenerative
agriculture does is it it
405
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,160
eliminates the need for those
synthetics and then farmers
406
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,640
don't have to spend so much
money to grow their crops and
407
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,480
they can be more profitable.
It's like the whole system that
408
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,160
regenerative agriculture
supports the entire system.
409
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,280
Everyone who's involved from the
smallest levels up to the up to
410
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,640
the, you know, the, the farmers
who are holding the large plots
411
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,280
of land, like everyone can
benefit from it, except for
412
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,600
maybe the big chemical companies
who want to sell their
413
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:13,800
petroleum, some fertilizers.
Maybe it's a good time to ask
414
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,560
where, where, where can people
find your bread?
415
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,880
So we are currently, we're in
the US, You can buy our bread
416
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:29,080
directly from our website,
livepacha.com and you can also
417
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,960
find US nationwide at Whole
Foods.
418
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,680
And then we're in a few other
chains that are regional.
419
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,880
Natural Grocers carries our
products, New Seasons, Gelsons,
420
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,120
Erawan, some smaller, some
smaller chains.
421
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,480
If you are would like to buy our
bread at a store, you can go
422
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,040
onto our website and look at our
store locator to find a location
423
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,040
near you.
Next, next time we're in the US,
424
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,800
we'll go to a Whole Foods to get
your read.
425
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,640
So, so where, where do you go
from here?
426
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,240
What's the vision in terms of
the company?
427
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,960
Where do you think regenerative
and sustainable food business is
428
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,840
going?
If you could talk a little bit
429
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,800
about that.
Yeah, well, gosh, there's
430
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,560
definitely a movement of
regenerative food happening
431
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,240
right now.
You know, it's not as so like
432
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:30,000
regenerative is still not a term
that most consumers are familiar
433
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,120
with and it's not a term that
helps sell a product at the
434
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,480
moment, unfortunately, because
people don't know about it, they
435
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,600
they're not willing to pay a
premium price for a product that
436
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,840
has regenerative ingredients.
But if you go to the food Expos
437
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,440
like if Expo W, which is one of
the biggest Consumer Packaged
438
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:56,080
Goods shows in the world, there
is, you know, people are talking
439
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,240
about it.
There's lots of, there's panels,
440
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,080
there are groupings of companies
that are, that are working
441
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,560
together.
There are, there are
442
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,280
certifications that are
emerging.
443
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,440
It feels very much like the the
food industry is realizing this
444
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:17,120
is where it's going and starting
to pay attention.
445
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,200
We are Pacha is a member of a
coalition called the Regen
446
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,040
Brands Coalition.
It just started this year, but
447
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,280
it's a group of about 40 brands
that are all that all have at
448
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,080
least one certified regenerative
product.
449
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,320
And you know, we are what we're
really working on is like, OK,
450
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,440
how do we collectively as
brands, how do we amplify our
451
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,920
voice?
How do we make the how do we get
452
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,560
through to the people who make
decisions about what goes on to
453
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,240
the grocery shelf?
Like how do we communicate with
454
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920
them about the importance of
regenerative?
455
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,400
You know, one of the other
really cool things that we have
456
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,360
seen in our journey is that
there are like, like with Whole
457
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,480
Foods, for example, they really
care like they are, they're,
458
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,240
they are, they're very strict
about their use of the word
459
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,280
regenerative.
And if you're not actually
460
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,160
regenerative, they're not going
to let you put it on your
461
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,400
package and sell it at a Whole
Foods store.
462
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:27,040
And then also, you know, we, we
went from having no distribution
463
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,440
in Whole Foods to being a
nationwide brand.
464
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,760
And that's not, that's not a
common occurrence.
465
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,520
It does happen, but many brands
start in one or two regions.
466
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,400
You know, they're just in
Southern California or they're
467
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,040
just in the Northeast or
whatever.
468
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,720
But really like in the
conversation that we had with
469
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,600
our buyer, the one who decides
what goes on the frozen bread
470
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,440
shelf, I'm pretty sure she
picked us up because we're, our
471
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,160
packaging is compostable.
Like she was like, this is a
472
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,400
bread brand who's doing
something that I've heard other
473
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:08,720
brands say they can't do.
All right, let's bring them in.
474
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,800
Let's let these other brands see
what can be done and hopefully
475
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,600
follow in their footsteps.
So there's some some there's
476
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,480
really good traction, and
there's also a lot of work to be
477
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,360
done.
Yeah.
478
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,400
You know, like in the United
States, 1% of farmland is
479
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,440
certified organic, and that's
not regenerative, that's just
480
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,200
organic.
You can still use like certain
481
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,560
organic pesticides and
fertilizers and whatnot on those
482
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,040
fields.
Yeah.
483
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:52,240
And so one of the, one of the
things that's kind of a TBD
484
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,640
within the regenerative space is
figuring out whether the
485
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,760
definition of regenerative
agriculture will say that you
486
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,640
must be organic before you can
be regenerative.
487
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,520
And I, I don't know where that's
gonna land.
488
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,000
There's a good argument both
ways.
489
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,440
You know, on one side, Yeah, it
really feels like if something
490
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,520
is regenerative, you shouldn't
be putting synthetic pesticides
491
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,800
on it, right?
Like Roundup and regenerative
492
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,040
just like that.
Doesn't seem like they go in the
493
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,640
same sentence.
However, if we want to be you
494
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,720
like fully utilize regenerative
agriculture for the climate,
495
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,120
yeah, for the climate change
buffering that it can provide,
496
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,680
we can't just start
transitioning the 1% of
497
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,760
farmland.
We need to be transitioning the
498
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,920
99% which is still
conventionally farmed.
499
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,120
So that one, I don't know how, I
don't know how to answer like
500
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,440
the, the trajectory in that
sense.
501
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,320
But I, I think like it's gonna
take five years at least for the
502
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,040
regenerative, the term
regenerative to really permeate
503
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,760
the consumer awareness in a way
that makes it like, OK, I'm
504
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,440
gonna put that on my package, on
the front of my package because
505
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,360
it's gonna get a consumer's
attention.
506
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,920
I think that's at least five
years away.
507
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:28,080
And but I see that happening and
I definitely see more brands and
508
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:33,480
investors and people who are
aware that our food system is
509
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,480
not, you know, there are there.
It's estimated that we have
510
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,960
something like 60 harvests left
on a lot of the conventionally
511
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,400
farmed land in across the world.
Like that's like 30 years.
512
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,800
If we keep farming the land in
the way we're doing it, we're
513
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:51,400
going to lose all of our
topsoil.
514
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,080
It's just going to like, we're
going to have another decibel on
515
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:55,480
our hands.
It's just going to blow away,
516
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,080
which is crazy.
It's like, it's crazy, but it,
517
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,400
it also doesn't have to happen.
And it's, you can quite rapidly
518
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:11,760
actually improve the, the, the
soil quality.
519
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,680
And you know, I don't think
we've said this directly in like
520
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:19,560
in this conversation, we've kind
of danced around it.
521
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,280
But when the soil is healthy,
like I said, it's got all these
522
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,920
carbon based life forms in it.
Soil is a huge carbon sink.
523
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,400
It's has more carbon sink
potential than growing trees
524
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:40,960
like reforestation is, is not as
good as building topsoil over
525
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,800
the, the amount of land that we
have transitioned to farmland.
526
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:51,680
It's it's a better solution,
which is really cool.
527
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,400
And yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
528
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,160
I mean, I think this is a topic
where there are probably
529
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,760
multiple opinions on where the
industry is going, where the
530
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,080
practice is going, whether,
whether it's, you know, really
531
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,320
doing what it's claiming to be
doing.
532
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,280
But it's very, very good to see,
you know, that a brand like
533
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:12,880
yours is, is making a
difference.
534
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:18,120
It is being recognized by
organizations like Whole Foods
535
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,320
and you know, for, for doing all
the, all the right things right.
536
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,800
And, and it creates a healthy
challenge.
537
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:29,200
Mehdi, this has been a, a very
insightful episode for us,
538
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,360
particularly because you know,
you started the brand in 2020.
539
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,400
You've come, you know, all the
way sold more than 500,000 units
540
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,200
and, and, and still you know,
there is a huge growth, growth
541
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,400
trajectory in front of you and
all the while doing the right
542
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,440
things for the environment and
for, for your consumers.
543
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,440
So so thank you for sharing,
sharing all your experience and
544
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,360
your journey with us today.
Yeah, absolutely.
545
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,000
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
546
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:03,360
Absolutely.
To our audience, thanks for
547
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:04,880
listening to Sustainability
Forward.
548
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,480
If you found today's episode
valuable, please subscribe,
549
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,360
leave us a review, and share it
with someone who cares about the
550
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,240
future, about sustainability.
Until next time, keep pushing
551
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:17,320
sustainability forward.
Co-Founder and Director of Marketing, PACHA
Maddie Hamann is the Co-Founder and Director of Marketing at PACHA Bread,
where she applies her extensive scientific background to drive the company’s
mission of promoting regenerative agriculture and sustainability. Maddie holds a
PhD from Scripps Institution of Oceanography, but she transitioned from the field
of Earth Science to marketing in order to make a direct impact on climate change
through business. Her dedication to environmental sustainability is at the heart of
PACHA’s marketing strategies, ensuring that the company’s values are reflected in
every aspect of the brand.
