S4E4: Growing Food Where Community Happens

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Hello and welcome to
Sustainability Forward.

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This is your host Rishi.
With me, as always, is my Co

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host Carmine.
How are you, Carmine?

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Good, Richie, welcome back.
Welcome back Carmine.

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You may remember when we moved
to the UK, which is around more

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or less similar timeline, or at
least I found out something

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really unique about the UK,
which is this idea of what is

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called allotments, which is
essentially small patches of

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land, sometimes behind houses,
sometimes along railway lines,

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sometimes in the corner of
cities, including in London,

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where ordinary people, members
of the public just grow food.

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And that that never has been for
influencers.

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It's just a regular thing that
people do as part of normal

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life.
And that habit encourages a

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little bit of, you know,
community activity.

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It I think brings a little bit
of resilience in the community.

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And honestly, people take a lot
of pride in growing, you know,

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the odd carrot, you know, maybe
a little bit of turnip or

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whatever, whatever the the
British weather will permit.

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And so it made me wonder if
allotments are kind of an answer

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to to the problem of, you know,
people in big cities not knowing

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where their food is coming from.
And in this sort of modern day

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version of of allotments, I
think we could think about, you

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know, creating a mechanism to
grow food more sustainably in,

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in in cities, right?
And that could be in a school,

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it could be, you know, on top of
a shopping mall or whatever.

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And I think that's the
conversation that we are

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bringing, bringing to
sustainability for today, not

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futuristic agriculture for the
sake of it, but you know, food

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access with dignity.
And, and we are going to talk a

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little bit about what happens
when growing food becomes

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something people can do where
they already are instead of

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driving miles out, you know, to
even see an agricultural farm.

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So Carmen, to do that, would you
please introduce our guest for

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today's episode?
Yes, Richie and by the way, a

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lot of memories from London as
well.

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You you just mentioned, but
today we are we're coming.

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Alex Teink, the Co founder, CEO
of four farms and inventor of

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his indoor farming technology
and methods.

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Alex is a former opera singer
who became his urban active

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character journey in Brooklyn,
starting with rooftop rooftop

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gardens and then building indoor
growing systems for education

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and food security.
After moving back to Wisconsin,

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he held leadership roles across
the social service sector

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including Goodwill Industries
and Phoenix American Eastern

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Wisconsin, and he has been
recognized locally for

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innovation and impact.
Alex live in Appleton, WI with

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his wife, son and their dog
Maya.

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So, Alex, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much for having

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me.
Alex I In preparation for this,

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for this episode, we, we had a
brief discussion a couple of

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weeks ago and, and you shared a
little bit of your experience of

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the rooftop farming in Brooklyn.
Maybe to start with, I want to

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take you back to the time if you
could help us understand what

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was going on in your life and
and what shifted once you

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started, you know, growing food
on on that rooftop.

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Yeah, of course.
And your listeners might be

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wondering what business does an
opera singer have getting into

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growing food and, and feeding
people.

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And yeah, I will, I will tell
you that I've come to learn that

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it's more, more connected, I
think, than some people might

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realize.
For me, I moved to New York City

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to pursue this passion for
music.

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And I originally got into music
because of the discipline it

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requires and the historical
context and being able to share

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with other people and to bring
joy, frankly.

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And when I got to the city, I
think I was met with a very

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different environment both in
the city and in the industry

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than I expected.
And I did fine.

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You know, I, I, I sang for some
opera companies and I, I did

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some commercials and all sorts
of things.

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And I, and I really got to get a
view into the entertainment

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industry.
And I think the deeper I got

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into it, the more I realized it
wasn't for me.

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And that was really
disheartening and shocking.

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And so as a result of that, I'll
tell you, I went into one of the

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darkest periods that I've been
through where my, my mental

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health took a pretty significant
dive.

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And it was really up ending for
me not really knowing, having

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that sense of purpose and
direction that I had.

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And I ended up spending more
days than I'll admit, just

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cooped up in my apartment and,
you know, just trying to think

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of what to do.
And I ended up meeting a

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gentleman in Brooklyn who was at
a art gallery that I've gotten

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hired to sing at.
And this gentleman had this

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wacky sculpture that he had made
for plants were growing out of

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it.
And it was really interesting.

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And I started talking to this
gentleman and he starts telling

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me about this rooftop farm that
he's running with a bunch of

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artists in in Brooklyn.
And I had never heard of this

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before.
I thought the idea of growing

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food at any scale in the city
was wild and fascinating and

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really interesting.
And I grew up in the state of

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Wisconsin, which is very
forested.

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There's a lot of nature, a lot
of lakes.

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And I grew up in the outdoors.
And so I think part of me really

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craved that.
And I ended up spending the next

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summer volunteering for this
nonprofit, Rooftop Artist Driven

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Farm.
And we were feeding a food

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pantry that was right there in
Brooklyn.

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And I'll tell you and your
listeners, you know, for me,

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coming from Wisconsin to the
city was also awakening and that

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being able to experience poverty
in that way for me for really

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the first time, having come from
relative privilege was also

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really eye opening.
And so the idea of being able to

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feed people that clearly needed
it really lifted me up.

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And so it the real turning point
though, was when, you know, a

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month or two in, they said,
here, here's some of this food

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that you've grown, take it home.
You eat it.

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You're a starving artist.
Looks like you could use it.

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You could take it home if you
eat it.

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And, and I did and my whole life
changed.

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And because I believe still to
this day that anytime you put

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effort into anything, you build
a strange emotional connection

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to it.
And I think it applies to

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anything.
You know, if you take really

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good care of your car or you,
you know, you, you feel a

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certain way about your car or if
it anybody has picked a cherry

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tomato from their garden, for
some reason, it just tastes

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better than the one that you
bought from from the store.

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And for me, that was absolutely
true.

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I started eating better, I
started feeling better.

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And for me, my mental health got
better.

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And I got really inspired by
this idea that food and growing

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food can be a vehicle for really
profound social change and can

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really help people and improve
lives.

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And that's what started me on
this journey almost 20 years

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ago.
Very interesting.

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And let's continue this journey
so it arrives to Folk Farm.

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Can you tell us a little bit
more about what it started else

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about the name, why this name
and now what they're doing

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today?
Yeah, of course.

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So nothing magic with fork
farms, farm to fork.

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I don't know if marketing was
ever my strong suit, but it's

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it's pretty on the nose.
And the passion was just the the

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more I learned about growing
food in the city and the deeper

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I got into it, but the the more
I realized that there really

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isn't a great solution out there
for how do people at a school,

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for instance, grow food while
the kids are in school so that

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they can meaningfully
participate.

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And we tried everything.
We tried rooftop farming and

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soil is where it started.
And then we realized the kids

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aren't around during the summer.
And that is something that

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school gardens have struggled
with for years is how do you how

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do you continue the engagement
year over year?

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And for food pantries, you know,
they'll get fresh local produce

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for a few months out of the
year, but for most areas, you

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just can't grow it year round.
And so this really opened our

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eyes to the fact that if you
want to do this and do it in a

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way that drives engagement, you
have to do it indoors, which is

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pretty novel for most people.
They're not used to hydroponics,

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which is growing food without
any soil.

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To some people at face value,
that seems very uncertain.

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And growing food indoors without
sunlight, using the sun poses

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another challenge and that's
energy cost.

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And that is something that has
been a big challenge for our

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industry in that you're, you
know, you're trying to grow food

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closer to where people are and
not have it shipped so far, but

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you know, it it's at the
sacrifice of quite a bit of

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efficiency.
And so that's where I put my

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energy as I wanted to figure out
what is a repeatable way that

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anybody can grow food indoors,
but more environmentally,

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sustainably and therefore at a
lower cost than the food that

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they can buy at the grocery
store.

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And I didn't know how daunting
of a challenge that was at the

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time.
It ended up taking me almost

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three years to figure it out.
I went through 35 prototype

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iterations and in 2013, so about
13 years ago, stumbled into the

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realization that if you design
the system the right way, you

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can recapture energy.
You can recapture the energy

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from the grow lights and
continue to reuse it and make

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sure it eventually gets to a
plant.

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And that drove down the cost of
this substantially.

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And it's then we realized, like,
wow, we have something where

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schools now can grow their own
food and they can do it for

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lower cost than the food that
they're buying off the back of

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the truck.
And these units provide an

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incredible educational
opportunity, but they also are

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going to transform the way
people think about sourcing

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fresh food and changing the way
potentially one school hospital

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at a time, how folks are
thinking about sourcing fresh

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food.
And I never started Fork Farms

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trying to build a business.
It's really was never the

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intent.
It was really just how do you

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engage more people and doing
this?

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And you know, I'll say that for
the last three years, we've been

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the fastest growing agriculture
and natural resource company in

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the US.
And I think it's just because so

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many people are hungry, no pun
intended, for something that can

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fix what we're sick of, which
is, you know, poor quality food

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being sold to us at top dollar,
seasonal disruptions to supply

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chain.
And so even if you can't afford

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the food, it's not available to
you.

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And that that's just
unacceptable, I think.

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Yeah, and highly unsustainable
for the thousands of miles that

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food tends to travel.
Absolutely, absolutely part of

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the world to the other.
Now, about about the company.

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When you approach a a school,
what is it that you offer?

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What do you bring in and what do
do they do on their on their

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part?
Yeah.

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So the core products that we
sell, if you will, is, is a

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indoor farming system.
But really the way we approach

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it is through partnership.
My opinion is that food is

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really personal to people.
It relates to your family, it

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relates to your heritage, it
relates to your community.

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And so for us to go in and try
to take A1 size fits all

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approach would be disrespectful.
And So what we do is we go in

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and we, we act as as partners
and consultants and advisors to

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the folks that we're working
with to figure out how can we

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accomplish 2 main things.
One is how can we help you think

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differently about your food
supply and use a system like

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this to build resiliency and
continuity and of of both supply

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and price and freshness and
quality and nutritional impacts,

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all these good things.
And then on the other hand, on

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the second thing is what can we
do programmatically to ensure

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high value and sustainability
long term?

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And so that takes a lot of
different forms depending on the

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group we're working with and
what they're trying to

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accomplish.
But you know, an example is we

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provide at no additional cost,
really comprehensive curriculum

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for schools so that this can tie
into their STEM lab or their,

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their science program or their
agriculture program or the even

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their, their, their, their
literature program.

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Because food really, we've
learned touches on everything in

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our life For a food bank, it can
be a great volunteer engagement

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program.
It can be a hunger relief

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program for healthcare, it can
be food as medicine or even for

228
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,800
commercial growers.
We've started to work with folks

229
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:23,240
that are looking to and with a
lot of success, grow and sell

230
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,520
produce and create a business
for themselves and for their

231
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:31,080
family and, and, and schools
that have said, hey, as part of

232
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,640
an entrepreneurial program,
let's have the kids grow food

233
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,480
and sell it at the local farmers
market.

234
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,480
So for us, it goes on and on and
on.

235
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,600
And I think that's what's so
exciting about this is that, you

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00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,840
know, we just have an
opportunity to learn from the

237
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,400
community and, and learn from
the partners that we work with

238
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:52,120
and really work to tailor what
we do, but using best practices

239
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,680
when it comes to indoor farming
and horticulture and provide

240
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,280
them a system that is reliable
and works and, and provides the

241
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,600
right results.
I love the DM of starting from

242
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,920
schools.
As most of us living in urban

243
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,240
settling, probably we forgot
what it means having our hands

244
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,080
in the ground and understanding
what are some of the basics

245
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:22,280
concepts of not sure growing
things and not just buying out

246
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,840
of the supermarket.
So there is a learn lot to

247
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,960
learn.
I think in the in the respect,

248
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,600
just waiting for things to grow,
taking care of them and

249
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:35,400
understanding what are the
steps.

250
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,960
You also mentioned a word that I
like.

251
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,520
You mentioned food access equal
to dignity.

252
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:48,400
What?
What do most people

253
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,520
misunderstood if they only think
in terms of price or calories

254
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,760
about food?
What does dignity look like in

255
00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,840
practice when we're thinking
about food for you?

256
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,839
That's a great question.
We call ourselves a food access

257
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:14,440
technology company because this
isn't about, you know,

258
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,119
agriculture per SE.
It's not about AG tech or even

259
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,319
food tech.
I think what we're working to

260
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,359
drive is food access.
And I think what you're speaking

261
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:31,320
to they there Carmine is how do
we define that word?

262
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,120
Because I think a lot of people
look at that differently.

263
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:37,360
For a lot of people, food access
is I go to the grocery store,

264
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:45,080
but for so many people on on the
one extreme, they do not have

265
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,200
access either.
They're physically located in a

266
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,200
way where, you know, driving to
the nearest grocery store that

267
00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,320
has fresh produce is
unattainable or pricing wise

268
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,040
it's unattainable or quality
wise it's unattainable or

269
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,600
seasonality and supply chain
wise, it's unattainable.

270
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,840
And so I think, I think for a
significant portion of the

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00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:15,560
population, you know, the idea
of living a highly nutritious

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00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,960
life is not as simple as just
choosing what to eat.

273
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,160
There's significant barriers to
that.

274
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,840
On the other end of the extreme,
you know, there's a fair number

275
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,880
of people that they can't afford
to buy nutrition and they can't

276
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,240
afford to buy food.
And I think part of it is US

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00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:38,280
deciding how do we define the
word food and how do we how do

278
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,680
we make it accessible and
attainable and approachable.

279
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:48,280
And I think that for me it comes
down to systems of control.

280
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,400
And I think that part of the
weakness of our current global

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00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,800
food supply chain is that we are
very dependent right now on

282
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,720
right now on a small number of
regions that produce a

283
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:05,520
significant volume of the
specialty crops that we consume

284
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,120
and rely on.
And you know, that has led to

285
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:13,320
some efficiencies over time, but
it has also led to a significant

286
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,400
amount of reliance and lack of
resiliency at the local

287
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,320
community level.
And my opinion is that when you

288
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,400
put control of food production
into the hands of the people

289
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,600
that are eating that food,
something miraculous happens.

290
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:37,200
And that is you don't just get
people eating more fresh food,

291
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,600
you get people engaged in the
whole process in the food and

292
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,000
everything that comes around the
food.

293
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,440
And you get community that
builds and you get increased

294
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,800
engagement that builds and
people start eating better and

295
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,560
feeling better, not because a
doctor told them that they had

296
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,040
to, but it's because they've
built passion and excitement

297
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,400
around it.
And that's really, I think

298
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,160
intangible and it's a movement
right now.

299
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,480
I mean, there are, there's so
many people, at least across the

300
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,120
US that are waking up to the
reality that.

301
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,920
You know, the world in the food
system that we've been living

302
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,880
under is not one that we have to
accept, and that's something

303
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,920
that really excites me.
I think there is also another

304
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:31,680
segments on your analysis that
that are other than the food

305
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:36,160
access, so basically food access
and there's also an educational

306
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,360
problem.
So even if you had the means,

307
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,520
even if you are easily
accessible, some of this

308
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,480
probably you don't know there is
another way of bringing in some

309
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,600
healthy calories and all the
experience you just mentioned

310
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,600
because it's unknown.
So there is a an educational

311
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,560
problem, there is a gap probably
there to be filled.

312
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,040
Absolutely.
I mean, it's been shocking to

313
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,560
our entire team how many schools
we go into and kids, and I'm not

314
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:12,640
talking very young kids can't
identify a potato from a

315
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:18,280
cucumber.
And that sounds crazy to most

316
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,520
people, I think, but it is our
current reality.

317
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,840
And so you, you'd mentioned this
educational piece and I, I

318
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,680
couldn't emphasize that point
more.

319
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:31,840
I think you're so spot on there
that this is in in some ways

320
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,200
even more of an educational
problem than it is an access

321
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,480
problem.
And I think education is food

322
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,080
access and I think they go hand
in hand.

323
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:45,360
So I appreciate you saying that.
It's, it's, it's amazing just to

324
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,320
share a, a personal story about
my three-year old son who

325
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,160
essentially grew up eating
supermarket potatoes.

326
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,680
When we took him to India for
the first time in in the North

327
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,920
East of India, you get this
really small baby potatoes, but

328
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,440
like really tiny baby potatoes.
And when he had them for the

329
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,040
first time, he refused to
believe that they were potatoes.

330
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,200
But he's, he's 3 year old
actually, but also the taste

331
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,680
even now, I mean, this was a
year ago.

332
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,480
Even now, he keeps asking the
same question, you know, can I

333
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,240
have those potatoes?
But you can't.

334
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,880
That's the that's the that's the
problem now.

335
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,520
Alex, you because schools is
such a big part, you know, of

336
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,040
your focus area.
I'm curious to learn a little

337
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,680
bit about the reactions you've
heard, particularly from the the

338
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:43,320
kids, the the students who I'm
assuming play a part in growing

339
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:49,280
the food that then ends up in
the lunch menu somehow, right?

340
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,720
What?
What have the reactions been

341
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,200
like?
Well, that's the most fun part.

342
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,920
I think that's what keeps us
going.

343
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,920
You know, so much of our team
put their feet on the floor

344
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,120
every day because of that
feedback that we get.

345
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:08,960
And it's so fun because it makes
it where these, you know,

346
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,320
vegetables that they had a
certain opinion on, right, a

347
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,040
certain perspective on gets
entirely transformed when they

348
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:24,280
did it themselves.
And, you know, there is school

349
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,720
after school, after school where
kids are asking the food service

350
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,320
staff like, where's where's our
salad?

351
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,360
You know, I don't want this
salad.

352
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,240
I don't want the stuff that we
bought somewhere else.

353
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,960
Where's, where's our stuff?
Where's my stuff that I grew?

354
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,600
And that kind of language, I
think says everything about what

355
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,640
this is about because it becomes
about, you know, again, more

356
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,160
than just choosing to eat a
salad.

357
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,440
It's about I was part of the
process.

358
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,960
I'm the farmer.
I know where this came from.

359
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,400
I trust it.
I knew.

360
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,120
I know it's at peak freshness.
I know it's safe.

361
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,680
I I know what it takes to grow
it.

362
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,440
And there's something just
beautiful about watching a plant

363
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,920
grow and there's something so
refreshing about being around

364
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,880
plants growing.
And you know, it's funny, we

365
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,200
just recently did a study where
in the city of Milwaukee,

366
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,360
there's a significant density of
placements of our technology at

367
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:31,400
different schools and, and other
locations.

368
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,720
And there is a nonprofit in the
city I believe called Fresh Air

369
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:43,000
Milwaukee that that placed CO2
sensors in classrooms that had

370
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,960
indoor growing system, a fork
farm system and that did not.

371
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,760
And they ran this comparative
analysis and they found on

372
00:24:53,760 --> 00:25:02,040
average almost a A600 parts per
million difference in the amount

373
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,600
of CO2 that was in the, we'll
call it the fresh room versus

374
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,720
the less fresh room.
And think about that, Think

375
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,840
about what that does to learning
and think about what that does

376
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:18,320
to just having oxygen to breathe
is something that we actually

377
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,040
take for granted, I think in
some of these old school

378
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:24,480
settings.
And so I just think it all of

379
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,760
that inspires a lot of
engagement with the kids.

380
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,520
You know, they're feeling
better, they're learning better,

381
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,400
they're eating better, and it's
all just because they got to put

382
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,960
a seed in this little growth
system.

383
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,960
It's so simple, I think is what
the beauty is.

384
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:47,240
And I think it's like Harmony
was saying earlier, if you can

385
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,680
give them an element of that
education from those formative

386
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,880
years, it can can stay with them
for a very, very long time.

387
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:57,600
Exactly.
Exactly.

388
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,560
Alex, let's look at for farms
from a different angle, from a

389
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,360
business angle.
So you, you don't operate farms.

390
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:13,760
We understand that you enable
others to grow physically also

391
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,480
we understand physically and in
their life.

392
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,120
But what is the right model in
your business?

393
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,800
How do you merge the people, the
process, the there's another

394
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,520
piece so there is maintenance
services.

395
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,760
How you design this and make it
work?

396
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,600
Yeah, great question and I
appreciate you asking.

397
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,360
And it's worth answering this
question in the context of what

398
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:45,760
has not gone well as well.
Because, you know, if anybody

399
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,440
goes and researches indoor
farming or vertical farming, the

400
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:57,400
story that they're going to see
pop up is not great, generally

401
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,680
speaking, because there have
been some significant swings

402
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,400
that have been taken.
And personally, I believe under

403
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:16,800
a misguided thesis, which, you
know, fundamentally comes from

404
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,920
the same problem set.
So, so let me give you an

405
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,480
example.
You you have, you know over the

406
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:27,160
last, I want to say 6-7 years
over $6 billion of venture

407
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,720
capital funding going into what
they called the vertical farming

408
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,320
sector.
And the vast majority of that

409
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,240
money went to organizations that
their core business model is to

410
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,920
grow food, develop new
technology and then grow food

411
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,880
and deliver it regionally.
So they were building big plant

412
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,320
factories basically.
And in order to get that level

413
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,640
of venture capital, you have to
create a case that this is a

414
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,440
tech company, you're going to
get tech valuations, you're

415
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,480
going to have this big future
exit.

416
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,760
And you know, when you look at
the opportunity, I mean, the

417
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,000
amount of poor quality and high
price out in the market, the

418
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,920
demand from consumers, there is,
there is a ton of opportunity

419
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:17,360
here and everybody saw that.
But I think, you know, their

420
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:21,560
pathway was to go and, and, and,
and build their own bespoke

421
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,200
system.
And they spent a lot of money on

422
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,560
that engineering R&D to build
out that technology model.

423
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:34,600
And as a result, the farms
looked amazing, in many cases,

424
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:41,280
operated well, but at the core
could not deliver food at a

425
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,440
lower cost than the consumer was
currently paying for the same

426
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,920
product or at least be able to
match the price for a higher

427
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,760
quality.
And in my view, that is the only

428
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,480
sustainable model long term for
let's say controlled environment

429
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,600
agriculture in general is that
if you get into this business,

430
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:06,920
you have to be able to create a
a differential value proposition

431
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,000
for the end consumer.
You have to be able to provide

432
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,840
the same product at a lower
price or provide a higher

433
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,360
quality product for the same
price.

434
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,920
That has to, in my opinion, that
is the only way.

435
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,040
And I think the bet they were
making is that because it's more

436
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,600
local, they'll be able to get
these premiums.

437
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,120
And in many cases they were.
But then we, at least in the US,

438
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,880
hit an incredible inflationary
period and energy prices went up

439
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,560
and they were no longer able to
compete.

440
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:40,040
And we, that's why we saw such a
string of failures, which I

441
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,200
think is fascinating and it's
something that we can all learn

442
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,280
from.
And I will say that luckily,

443
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,560
Fork Farms took a fundamentally
different approach in that we

444
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,600
never really started the
business.

445
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,680
We started with family and
friends helping out to get it

446
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,480
going.
We started small.

447
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,160
We started with our customer in
the center and we iterated with

448
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,040
our customer.
And from the beginning, we only

449
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,960
wanted to be the enabler.
We wanted to be the the picks

450
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,840
and shovels.
We wanted to be the technology

451
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,760
that allows other people to
build farms.

452
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,360
And in order to do that from the
jump, we were competing with,

453
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,920
you know, conventional food
service providers, right?

454
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,360
You know, if you go to a, a
school district nutrition

455
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,840
services director and you say,
hey, build this farm and oh, by

456
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,400
the way, the food that you grow
is going to be 3 times the price

457
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,200
of what you're currently paying,
they're going to laugh you out

458
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,200
the door.
So what we had to prove early on

459
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,560
is that we can build these farms
and we can build them with

460
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,960
economic and environmental
sustainability and, and we

461
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,760
proved it.
And the way that our business

462
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:50,960
has grown at the core has been
one passionate partner of ours

463
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,600
introduces us to another
potential one and they introduce

464
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,200
us to another.
And it's been very much so a

465
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,920
momentum by word of mouth and by
and by engagement because what

466
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,800
we do works and it's and it's
helping people and it's, and

467
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,120
it's doing for them what it
really needs to do at the core

468
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,880
level, which is knew you asked
about the rest of our model.

469
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Again, it's those two
components.

470
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,000
It, it has to provide the unit
economic on the on the

471
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,360
technology side, our our systems
that we deploy to people have to

472
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:26,400
be innately value additive.
And it also has to fit with the

473
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,640
needs of the partner.
You know, some folks they, they

474
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,160
don't need to go big right away
and they, they want to start

475
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,800
smaller.
Maybe they want to incrementally

476
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,920
grow the size of their farm over
time, or maybe they, they need

477
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,920
to start big.
And so a technology set that's

478
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,080
modular and scalable and
deployable I think is key.

479
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,320
It has to work in a wide variety
of facility settings because,

480
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,120
you know, people are coming
from, you know, all sorts of

481
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,960
situations here.
And if we put it in a food

482
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,240
pantry, we want that to work
just as well as in a hospital or

483
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,000
a senior living facility
wherever it's going.

484
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,720
And so we designed all of our
technology with these parameters

485
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,560
in mind that this is about
deployability and be helping

486
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,120
people operationalize their farm
as quickly as possible and

487
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,200
successfully as possible,
knowing that 99% of the growers

488
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,960
we work with have very little
experience growing things.

489
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,120
And that leads to the, the, the
second piece and that's how we

490
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,720
deploy education and how we and
we take two approaches there as

491
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,560
well.
One is we're hands on with our

492
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,240
partners.
We're real people that answer

493
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,920
real questions.
We forge real relationships with

494
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,440
those that we work with.
We don't think of ourselves as a

495
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,600
product company.
You know, we don't sell

496
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,680
products, we sell experiences
and services and programs and

497
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,880
and the product is just the
vehicle for what we're really

498
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,760
getting done.
And I think that's the real key.

499
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,240
And the other part is we, we
build a based on customer

500
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,800
feedback, kind of pre templated
programs and opportunities based

501
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,760
on the consistent use cases that
we've seen come up over time.

502
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,920
And that has driven over time a
lot of self-service.

503
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,040
And so through, you know, we've
got like a like an app, a

504
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,640
digital environment that people
can get into.

505
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,640
And, and it's been amazing to me
on how much people want to take

506
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:17,720
this on themselves.
They're like, not we got it.

507
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,400
Like I'm going to, I'll look it
up if I need you.

508
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,960
And, and, but we want to figure
this out and we want to do our

509
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,440
own thing.
And I think that's really

510
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,440
inspiring too.
You know, people want to try

511
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,720
things, they want to do things
that we aren't telling them how

512
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,120
to do.
And you know, we saw a school

513
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,000
once grow a kumquat, which
whoever thought that could be

514
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,160
grown indoors, you know, we had
a school do a pumpkin one year.

515
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,360
I mean, not something that
should be grown indoors, but how

516
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,320
fun, right?
It's not something that's going

517
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,080
to drive economic viability, you
know, with those types of

518
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,160
products.
But they proved it can be done

519
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,080
and it got the kids really
excited about pumpkins and about

520
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,880
growing things and the science
behind that.

521
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,040
And so we never say no in that,
in that regard.

522
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:08,159
So what's what's next for the
company as well As for the

523
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,920
communities you serve?
What what, what does success

524
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,960
look like, if we can even define
it?

525
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,360
I mean, what are you thinking
for the future?

526
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:22,120
I think that if, if you would
have asked me that question five

527
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,280
years ago, I would have answered
it differently than a year ago

528
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,719
and different than I'll answer
it today.

529
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,679
So ask me in a year and we'll
see how much it's changed.

530
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,719
In the beginning, I would have
been happy, you know, deploying

531
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,360
about 100 farms through the
course of my life, you know,

532
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,560
making enough to get by and just
leaving this earth feeling like

533
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,639
I had helped people grow some
food and eat a little better and

534
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,120
that, that that would have been
enough.

535
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,120
But but that's, that's not where
it is.

536
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,960
You know, now we're in all 50
states, we're in 22 countries,

537
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,200
we're servicing almost 6000
indoor farms across that

538
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,920
geography.
And, and it's just because

539
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:04,000
that's, that's what people have
asked for, you know, that's

540
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,400
where this has gone and, and
it's been very market driven.

541
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,960
And so I don't see that stopping
customers.

542
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,640
Partners are asking us for
bigger and bigger farms.

543
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,360
They're asking us for more
automation.

544
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,480
They're asking for more
programs.

545
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,160
Different types are coming to
us.

546
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,560
We've got a lot of entrepreneurs
we're working with.

547
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,640
We've got a lot of, you know,
even homes, you know, which is

548
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,960
not something that we've been
very focused on up until this

549
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,360
point.
So I think for the company,

550
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,800
we're going to see, you know,
some radical product

551
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,920
diversification happen so that
we can serve an even wider

552
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,320
spectrum.
And my goal is to be able to say

553
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,520
that we are the organization
that provides the entire

554
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,720
spectrum of scale and service
for whoever wants to do this.

555
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:57,160
And, and I think we're going to
get there relatively quickly.

556
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,280
And I think that we're going to
do this globally.

557
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,920
I see the company being in on
every continent and, and as many

558
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,320
countries as we can impact that,
that need and want the work.

559
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,320
And you know, I'm not as driven
by what's, you know, the size of

560
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,720
the company could be revenue
wise.

561
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:18,160
I mean, I think I think that is
important and we want to run a

562
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,520
good business and a profitable
business and a sustainable

563
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,600
business.
But, but really it's just been

564
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,960
so exciting for me to watch it
as well, you know, from the

565
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:32,120
10,000 foot view level and, and
just be really inspired by what

566
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,680
the team has, has created and,
and, and what the customers are

567
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,400
doing and how we're innovating
together as, as a community.

568
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,240
And, and I, I, I think you're
going to hear about us, you

569
00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:45,760
know, those listening, I think
you're going to see that this is

570
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,760
something that's here to stay.
It's something that that works

571
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,920
and and I really hope that it's
a beneficial part of the future.

572
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,880
And actually, let's make this,
let's bring it, Father.

573
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,480
Let's say that to my my
listener.

574
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,920
I love what I'm eating and I
want to reach out to you because

575
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,400
I'm interested to run a farm.
I want to get in touch with Folk

576
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,480
Farm.
What should I do?

577
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,200
Well, just pick how you like to
reach out and reach out and I'll

578
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,720
promise you that there's a real
person on the other end of

579
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,480
whatever channel that is.
So you can engage us in social

580
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,080
media.
You know, we've got Facebook

581
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,760
and, and whatever, Instagram and
LinkedIn and all that good

582
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,400
stuff.
And we've got a website,

583
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,160
forkfarms.com.
We've got phone numbers you can

584
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,160
call, e-mail addresses, you can
e-mail.

585
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,240
And there's a real human on the
other side of the line, which I

586
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,560
think is a really important
piece.

587
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,400
And when you call us, it's not
about great, how big of a farm

588
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,120
do you want to buy?
It's about, thanks for calling,

589
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,760
who are you with and what you're
trying to do?

590
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,720
And let's work together to
figure out how we can design a

591
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:54,920
solution that really serves you
and your community as best as

592
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,240
possible.
Excellent.

593
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,240
Alexis has been, I think, quite
an educational and interesting

594
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,560
episode for for our viewers.
So I'd like to thank you for

595
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,320
joining us on Sustainability
Forward.

596
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,200
And it's been my pleasure.
Thank you for having me guys.

597
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,640
Absolutely.
So that was Alex Tank, Carmen.

598
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,000
The idea we explore today was I
think quite a big one, and yet a

599
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,640
very simple one.
I mean, I realized, and this has

600
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,520
been a bit of a theme this year
for us, hasn't it, Where, when,

601
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:33,880
when people can grow or even a
little bit of the food that they

602
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,920
will eventually consume,
sustainability stops being like

603
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,520
an abstract topic, right?
Because all of a sudden now it

604
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,880
starts becoming agency.
So, and that idea is quite

605
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,920
powerful because earlier we
explored a little bit about what

606
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,920
is your individual footprint, I
think in one of the previous

607
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,280
episodes.
So this is such a great way of,

608
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,720
of, of linking, you know, your
own footprint to how do you do

609
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:01,240
something to, to address,
address it.

610
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,960
Alex has obviously shared how
you can reach out to him and his

611
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,200
team.
So if you're thinking about, you

612
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,200
know, creating a shared space to
grow something, I'm sure I'm

613
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,360
sure Alex and his team can
provide some ideas to our

614
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,360
listeners around the world.
Thank you for tuning in.

615
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,680
Of course, you can reach us on
Sustainability forward.com and

616
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,280
all the major podcast platforms.
Continue to subscribe and share

617
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,240
our episodes, and we look
forward to seeing you in the

618
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:35,000
next 1.
Carmine, thank you for joining

619
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,560
us.
Thank you, Richie.