Has ESG lost its way — or just its courage?

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Welcome to sustainability
forward.

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I am Rishi from London and from
somewhere between France and

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Switzerland is my Co host
Carmen.

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How are you, Carmen?
Oh, good, Rishi today in France,

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yes.
So today we are diving into a

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topic that has become in a way
controversial and of course very

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critical, and that's the future
of ESG and corporate

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sustainability.
The question we are trying to

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answer today is whether this ESG
movement has lost its way a

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little bit, but more
importantly, what are the

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solutions to bringing it back on
track?

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And this question feels very
relevant in today's environment

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around the world.
You know, we keep hearing news

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of government sort of
backpedaling on climate

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commitments.
ESG regulations seem to be

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tightening, and many companies
seem to be quietly scaling back

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on some of the some of their
ambitions.

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So we want to understand the
situation better.

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So where does real ESG
leadership come from today?

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And how do we restore the
credibility to this ESG

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environment?
Carmen, would you please welcome

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our guest?
Yes, our guest today has a

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clearview on that.
Scott Lane is a lawyer

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technologies with over 25 years
of leadership on ESG risk is the

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founder and CEO of speaking, a
full service ESG sustainability

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reporting and management partner
to large corporates.

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Scott began his career in law,
specialized in corporate

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governance and anti corruption
before founding the Red Flag

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Group in the 2006.
He scaled to 300 employees and

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build partnership with some of
the world's largest

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multinationals before selling
the firm to the London Stock

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Exchange Group in 2020.
Scott now leads speaking, I

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think companies moving beyond
ESG rhetoric towards miserable

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trusted impact.
So, Scott, welcome to

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Sustainability for Wedding.
Thank you very much.

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Thanks for having me.
So before we jump in, coming in

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the last episode, we we
discussed the news item and that

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was the International Energy
Agency's reports that while

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global investment in clean
energy continues to rise, the US

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and parts of Europe are seeing
sort of renewed reliance on

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fossil fuels.
And meanwhile, regulations

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around the ESG disclosures are
tightening across Europe and

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Asia.
So today's episode feels very,

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very much connected to that, to
that threat as well.

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Yes, it's a perfect backdrop for
our conversation because it

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alights exactly what Scott has
called the crisis of leadership.

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Exactly.
And that's kind of the first

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segment that we want to start
with Scott.

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So Scott, it, it feels.
Like that ESG is a little bit

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stuck today and we've heard you
say in other platforms that

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sustainability is experiencing,
you know, crisis of leadership.

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Could you explain what do you
mean by that?

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Sure.
I mean, firstly, I think ESG is

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stuck, but I think it can be
very easily unstuck, to be

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honest.
And I talk about the crisis of

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leadership because I truly
believe that organisations have

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a purpose, they have a role in
society, and that role is not

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only to extend value to their
shareholders, but it's also

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their broader stakeholders.
And that includes the planet,

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it's people, the communities
they operate in.

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So I'm a firm believer of that.
And I'm a firm believer that the

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leaders of companies have that
duty of care.

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They have a duty of care to
protect their people, their

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companies, the environment,
their communities, and they have

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this ongoing role to make their
companies resilient.

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And by building resilient
companies, they're able to deal

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with some of the challenges that
they may present in the future,

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for example, climate change.
So in my view right now, there's

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a lack of leadership, there's a
lack of courage.

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There is a unfortunately there
is a reactive approach to

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management and leadership and,
and we're seeing that play out

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right now.
So I, I think that to, to use

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your words, I think ESG is
stuck.

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But actually what I look at it
at the moment is it's a little

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bit like a volume dial on a old
style analogue device where

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you've got this dial that turns
up and turns down.

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And in some circumstances, we're
seeing that turned down right

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now.
What I'm hoping is that some

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sensible leaders with courage
can grab that remote control and

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can turn it back up again.
Scott, do you think this is

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about weak intent or weak
execution, both.

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So are companies saying that I
think, but not not acting on

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this?
I think it's a bunch of things,

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but actually the biggest thing,
I think it's courage.

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I think companies need corporate
courage, and I think they're

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lacking in corporate courage
right now.

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I think they're kowtowing to
political pressure.

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They are kowtowing to pressure
being applied to them by some

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limited stakeholders.
I think that they're really

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lacking corporate culture to to
be that change agent and to

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drive things forward.
So I think it's a lack of

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courage.
I think it is a fear in

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operating an uncertain
environment.

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I don't think that it's because
it's too complex or it's too

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difficult or it's too expensive.
I, I don't see any of those

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things actually at all.
I think it's just corporate

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courage.
I think it's leaders that right

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now they are unable to see the
wood from the trees, they're

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unable to see a clear path.
And so in those circumstances,

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they'll do very little and if
anything, they'll turn backwards

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and that's a real
disappointment.

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So, Scott, would it be fair to
say that the reason why

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companies are lacking courage
today is because ESG, the topic

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became too political or they did
not see any benefits coming out

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of ESG.
Would that be fair to conclude

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is now because you know, if
there is a financial gain at the

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end of an activity, companies
are, you'll see many companies

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being courageous with ESG.
Has the opposite happened?

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Well, firstly, I think that yes,
you know, we all hope that by

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operating companies that are
strong on sustainability and

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strong on ESG practices, we
obviously expect that that has a

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positive impact on the business
and that positive impact both on

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the shareholder returns, but
also on stakeholders.

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The the issue is that that
positive impact often takes a

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little bit longer than what a
classic investment might be.

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And secondly, not only does it
take longer, but sometimes it's

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hard to measure because we're
making a longer term decision

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and we are investing for the
long term and we don't always

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have clarity around the
technology that's going to

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actually get us there.
And so in many cases, we're

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setting lofty aims and goals
without a clear path.

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Now, you know, we have done that
in the world, you know, putting

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a man on the moon.
We've done that in numerous

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situations.
And this is no different.

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We are going to have to have the
courage in our convictions and

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we're going to keep pushing
forward even when we're not

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exactly clear on what the path
is going to be.

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But that requires that courage.
And so I think companies are

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seriously lacking in having that
courage.

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And it again, it's not because
they think that it's too

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expensive or because they're
kowtowing to potential political

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issues.
I, I don't think it's that.

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I think it's that they're they
don't understand the science and

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they don't understand how to
walk in an environment where

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you're truly a leader.
You know, most leaders are in

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these situations where they
don't see a path forward.

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That's what a leader is.
A whole point of leadership is

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to be that person or that group
or that forum that looks into

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the future, that looks not at
the foot in front of you, but

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looks 10 miles ahead.
And we don't always have clarity

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what's around that corner, but
we know we've got the skills,

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we've got the teams, we've got
the experience and we can lead

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through those challenging times
even though we don't know what's

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around that corner.
That's what leadership is.

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So I, I don't put it down to
politics.

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I just put it down to poor
leadership, poor goals, poor

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direction, lack of spine, a lack
of courage.

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I put it down to ignorance in
many cases.

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Interesting.
And you just remind me of we

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talk about the tragedy of the
horizon, what market Mark Carney

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said a few years ago explaining
the misalignment between the

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short term kind of thinking of
leadership in companies or

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leading countries versus a
problem that takes years to be

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solved as the climate change and
probably there is that the kind

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of same misalignment you were
talking about?

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There is, there is, there is a
clear misalignment right now

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between the short term thinking
and the short term reward system

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that both stock exchanges
impose.

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But also you know what we need
long term to fix the global

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problem.
So, so there is definitely a

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short term versus long term
issue.

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But but I would say that I think
companies still have to think

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medium and long term.
I mean, even if you're a company

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dealing with its own market and
you're ignoring issues like

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climate change or sustainability
for a moment, companies still

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have to have a medium to long
term solution.

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I mean, you're not running a
company for three to five years.

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You're just not.
You're running a company for

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15203050.
You're running a company for

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generations.
That's what you're running a

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company for now, unless there
are certain situations where you

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know that you're undertaking
some sort of change in a short

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period of time or you've got
some sort of limit on your, on

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your operating license, for
example, that might be

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different.
But but a normal company has to

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look 1015, twenty, 30-40 years
in the future just has to that's

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how companies have always
operated.

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So to think that, you know, that
is we, we play the same issue

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here with sustainability.
That's also a 10/20/30 forty

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year horizon just like it is
when you buy a building.

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You know, when you buy a
building you're looking at

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A203040 year mortgage, you're
looking at loan periods which

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can be 2020, thirty years and
there's no difference.

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I mean, we always have looked
long term in running businesses

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and we should do so with
sustainability there.

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There's no difference in the
thinking.

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The difference is there's an
element of absurd in that we

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don't exactly know what is going
to happen in that 20th or 26th

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year.
We don't exactly know.

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And I say, well, that's OK
because that is our job.

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Things are not going to happen
overnight.

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We're not going to wake up one
day and say, oh, wow, you know

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the sky is black.
What just happened.

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That is not going to happen.
And so we know that we've got

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10/15/20 years worth of trending
with the observations, with the

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data.
We've got all the data in the

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world available to us right now.
We can predict that data.

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We've got AI to help us see that
data.

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There is absolutely no excuse
but not being able to see,

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expect or predict what might be
around that corner.

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So you have argued that
businesses say you put a lot of

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emphasis on businesses to lead
this, not governments.

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What do you believe that?
Yeah.

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Well, show me a government in
the world that is actually doing

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pretty well at the moment, that
is actually leading its purpose.

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So I, I have absolutely 0 faith
in governments to fix this

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issue.
Absolutely 0.

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The only government that I have
faith in is actually the Chinese

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government.
I think the Chinese government

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with its structure and its power
and its wealth and its ability

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to drive change, which we have
seen in sustainability, that's

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the only government I think that
can actually make significant

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headway.
And it is, and it has been.

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It looks like it will continue
to.

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So we all have China to look at
as our guide and potentially as

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our saviour.
But back to your question,

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absent China, I don't see any
other country that's truly

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striving.
Europe has definitely taken some

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great strengths.
They've had a few wobbles

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recently that being impacted and
the patch of wobbling and we'll

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see where that comes through.
But no, I don't have a huge

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faith in government.
I see that governments are in

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most cases highly unusual
animals.

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They're unpredictable animals.
They are politically charged

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animals.
They are animals that are, I

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don't think we can necessarily
rely on for long term and that

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applies in most cases.
So that being said, companies

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can operate in a different
spectrum and can operate longer

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term.
And I think that's why I put a

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lot of faith in in companies to
to drive this change.

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I think they're more fast, I
think they're faster, they're

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more agile, they're nimble.
You know, they've got the

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ability, the skill sets that
people have in companies are so

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much stronger than what we have
in government.

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00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,040
I mean, you know, I keep looking
at some of the, you know, Senate

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00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,320
inquiries in the United States
when they start talking about

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00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,400
complex, relatively complex
issues like AI or technology or

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00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,920
even the Internet and see some
of the, you know, the head

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00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,200
banging responses that these
elected officials have.

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00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,440
And and these are the people
that we're expecting to predict

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00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,400
the future and run out around
our society and the planet going

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00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,480
forward.
Embarrassing.

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00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,960
So the answer is the answer has
to be on companies.

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00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,120
It's the it's the only solution.
Yeah.

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00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,600
Absolutely.
I was just reading somewhere

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00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:04,920
yesterday that the amount of
solar added by China in six

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00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,680
months is more than the total
solar added by the United

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00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,640
States.
Absolutely correct.

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That is a correct step.
In fact, I think it might even

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00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,600
be more than that.
I think it it might not just be

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the United States, might be the
entire world.

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00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,400
So the answer is yes, it's
absolutely.

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00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,640
Look, without China's work in
the last few years, look, our

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00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,640
numbers globally would look
very, very different.

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00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,160
You know, we would be seeing an
increase in global emissions.

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00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,240
But right now we're flatlining.
And that flatline is purely on

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00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,360
the basis of China.
So, you know, China has has done

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00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,880
a an extraordinary job.
They've got an extraordinary job

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00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,480
to do in the future, but they're
making some great headway.

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You know, you know, I think, you
know, we should really learn

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00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,360
from China, not, not try and
distance ourselves, but we

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should be collaborating and
learning how it's being done so

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00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:57,720
that we can consider that
elsewhere in the world.

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00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,560
Yeah.
Now Scott, certainly the role of

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00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,240
companies as you say is, is very
important.

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00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,520
My question is specifically
about the role of boards, right.

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00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:18,320
What's your view on typically
how well they understand ESG and

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00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,000
what are their responsibilities
in this domain?

269
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,680
Yeah.
So first question is really easy

270
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,960
to answer.
I think the average knowledge of

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00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,520
a board member when it comes to
ESG and sustainability is

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00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,360
extremely low.
I think it is.

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00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,840
I would if I, you know, if that
classic one to five scale, I

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00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,800
think it's A1 or A2, I think
it's very, very low.

275
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,400
You know, I was at an event
recently with thousands of board

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00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,960
directors and ESG and
sustainability.

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00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,400
I think I heard it mentioned
once in four days now I heard AI

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00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,200
mentioned every third word, but
ESG and sustainability is

279
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,040
mentioned once.
And, and really that surprised

280
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,400
me.
But people really had very

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00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,440
little time for it.
They had very little

282
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,880
understanding of it.
And, and so it was, you know,

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00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,560
these are relatively new
concepts that have been brought

284
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,440
in.
And I think we haven't allowed

285
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,560
our board members to really
learn and grow and experience

286
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,880
what ESG and sustainability is.
And I think it's kind of just

287
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,839
flown by them and, and they just
haven't been able to catch up.

288
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,480
Now, when I, when I talk to
boards, I tend not to use the

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00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,240
ESG and sustainability words to
go.

290
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,200
I, I, I try to avoid those
words, firstly because there is,

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00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,280
there's a little bit of toxicity
as we discussed at the start,

292
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,680
but also because I have to put
it in language that I understand

293
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,480
now, a board member, one of
their primary roles is to

294
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,480
exercise that duty of care and
they exercise that duty of care

295
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,440
for the benefit of the
shareholders and they're

296
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,320
building strategy for an
organization in the long term.

297
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,200
So long term return for
shareholders and I would say

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00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,840
stakeholder.
So their duty of care extends

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00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,240
into the future.
Now boards are very good at

300
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,840
understanding that duty of care.
They're very good at

301
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,560
understanding risk.
They're good at risk.

302
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,600
They get risk.
Their job is to manage risk.

303
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,320
So when we talk about ESU
sustainability topics, what I do

304
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,440
is I talk to them about risk and
I, I don't talk about

305
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,920
sustainability.
I say, listen, we have to build

306
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,880
a business that has resilience.
We have to build a business that

307
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,040
is going to exist in three,
five, 1020 years.

308
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,120
So we need to look at all those
areas of risk that we need to

309
00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:27,720
manage and manage effectively.
Now there's some of those areas

310
00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,400
of risk that we might actually
be able to turn into a positive,

311
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,240
meaning an opportunity.
So there are some negative, lots

312
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:36,840
of negatives, but there are some
positives too.

313
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,360
So I talked to them in that
concept of risk and I talked to

314
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,240
them in that concept of
resiliency.

315
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,800
And I tell I talk to them in the
context of exercising their duty

316
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,320
of care and doing that.
So to give you an example, I

317
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,600
don't talk to them about ESG and
sustainability.

318
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,600
What I talk to them about is
capitalizing on market trends,

319
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,160
trends that individuals might
see in the way they do business,

320
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,320
in the way they commute, the way
that they use energy, the way

321
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,560
that they might, for example,
travel.

322
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,720
So products services, I talked
to them about, look, we don't

323
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,680
want the risk of a bribery
corruption issue happening on

324
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,760
our watch.
We don't want the risk of a

325
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:17,960
health and safety issue, a
building collapsing.

326
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,920
We don't want the risk of our
major manufacturing plant being

327
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,000
underwater 3 * a year because of
floods.

328
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,320
We don't want the risk of a
community which houses 90% of

329
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,000
our employees being wiped out
due to forest fires.

330
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,560
We don't want the risk of a
water or a pollution event

331
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,040
because of a malfunction
polluting our local environment.

332
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:43,080
So I talked to them about risk
and resiliency, and they tend to

333
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:44,640
operate better in that
environment.

334
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,360
It's when we start talking about
sustainability that the eyes

335
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,240
start glising over.
They start, you know, thinking

336
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,760
about, you know, visions of
activists hugging them trees and

337
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,440
locking themselves in front of
forests.

338
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,640
And all that stuff is old
school, old thinking.

339
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,280
But that's where they're at.
And so I need to play with what

340
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,200
I have in front of me.
And unfortunately in most boards

341
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,000
I have an age group that's 65
and above, I have a majority of

342
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:18,400
male via majority of males.
And in most situations I have a

343
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,000
via majority of white males.
Highly educated, towards the end

344
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,920
of their careers, made
significant amounts of money and

345
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:29,120
probably not looking for the
next 50 years as to how they can

346
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:32,120
build businesses.
So very short term thinking from

347
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,800
their own personal perspectives.
And so I need to talk to them in

348
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,400
language to understand risk,
resiliency, duty of care.

349
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,560
Interesting.
So a lot of companies may have

350
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:51,080
these ESG programs, but very few
can show real performance.

351
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,520
What can we move?
How they can move from

352
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,200
compliance ESG so ticking the
box to something that is

353
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,240
credible and other driven.
Yeah.

354
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,320
I mean, it's part of the trend,
isn't it?

355
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,000
And part of the challenge of
this is the laws.

356
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,200
The laws forced everyone to
report.

357
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,120
And so the laws came out and
said you guys need to report,

358
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:15,000
you need to tell us all this
information and you need to

359
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,040
publish it now.
And what happened was everyone

360
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,120
went into compliance mode.
There's law.

361
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:21,960
Therefore we need to respond and
we need to report.

362
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,720
And so that is actually the
problem.

363
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,840
To be honest, what we should
have done is we should have

364
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:32,200
coached and encouraged companies
to drive different behaviours,

365
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,000
Dr. different cultures to take
steps along this path without a

366
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,280
strict focus on producing a
report by this date in this

367
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,960
format, with this, you know,
XBRL tagging in order to go into

368
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,760
this database that likely no one
will ever read.

369
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,040
So unfortunately we are, we're
looking at this reverse

370
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,080
engineered right now.
We're focusing on the reporting

371
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,120
and we're not focusing on
substantive.

372
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,640
So unfortunately, we are where
we are.

373
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,600
And so all I can say right now
is look to companies is do the

374
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,520
reporting, tick that box, get it
out.

375
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,720
But now let's go back and work
on some of these substantive

376
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,240
issues.
And we need to do that in

377
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,040
tandem.
And there's no excuse for it.

378
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,000
This is not a reporting
exercise.

379
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,960
This is a management system
exercise that happens to do

380
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,400
reporting.
So I think that will get fixed

381
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,240
in the next few years.
But right now unfortunately the

382
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,160
way the legislation was drafted,
although it is changing in some

383
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,240
areas, there is an owner, some
compliance and reporting and

384
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,200
disclosure, which is the wrong
end of the stick.

385
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,080
But it is what we have.
So we need to deal with it and

386
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:41,760
reverse engineering.
Now I am curious, Scott, did the

387
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:46,160
history of financial reporting
also evolve in a similar way or

388
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,600
I don't know if someone has done
this historical comparison, you

389
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,000
know?
There is some historical

390
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,680
comparison.
The issue about financial

391
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,800
reporting is it took us about 50
or 60 years to.

392
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,640
Get we don't have.
Time, it took us 50 or 60 years

393
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,160
to get IFRS agreed around the
world.

394
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,840
I mean that that was a very,
very long process and it and

395
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,640
it's still not super sticky.
So that that was a huge process

396
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,800
that happened.
So right now we're doing this in

397
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,040
the space of years, frankly, you
know, you know, probably 5 to 10

398
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,160
years, but actually in some
sense even less than that.

399
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:26,120
So look, we are absolutely
jamming this thing in and we are

400
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:29,680
pushing it into the business
environment.

401
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:35,000
And you know, look, it's not the
why, it's not how I would have

402
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,080
done it.
But I think, yeah, we're time

403
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720
has not been on our side and
that's because we have a crisis

404
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,720
that we need to deal with.
But I think perhaps there was

405
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:50,680
some over exuberance in this
area on on regulations and I

406
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:51,840
think that hasn't helped as
well.

407
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:55,600
So yes, financial reporting took
50 years, non financial

408
00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:01,160
reporting has taken 5.
Now in your experience from your

409
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:08,800
work at speaking or before, have
you seen any so great examples

410
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,640
of companies doing this?
Well, if you can disclose names,

411
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,160
very good, but if not, you know,
just some anonymized examples

412
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,440
would also be good for our
audience.

413
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,320
Sure.
I mean, I I try not to talk too

414
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,920
much about names, firstly
because there's always two sides

415
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,440
to a coin unfortunately.
So while someone might be doing

416
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,240
something fantastic that can
flip very, very quickly.

417
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,480
But look, what I can say is
that, you know, I part of the

418
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,240
speaky work that we do is we
audit companies.

419
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,640
So we audit non financial
statements and we audit

420
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,400
sustainability statements.
We give we certify companies

421
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,720
against ISO standards, So for
example, so whether it's a

422
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,200
corruption standard or another
standard.

423
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,680
And so, you know, we are
assessing companies, we are

424
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,360
interviewing CE OS, we are
interviewing the whole

425
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:59,320
management team, not only just
in headquarters, but in many

426
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,920
cases around the world.
So a recent project that I did

427
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,640
that was purely on bribery.
So it was a purely anti bribery

428
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,640
issue.
You know, I interviewed 400

429
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,160
people to assess them and to
look at their culture and to

430
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,720
assess with their understanding
and to challenge the way they

431
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,080
think.
The challenge their

432
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,440
understanding of the of the law
and the systems.

433
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,880
Challenge them on their policies
and their procedures and their

434
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,280
risk assessments and their
monitoring and their measuring

435
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,280
and the tools they use and the
technology they use and the

436
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,800
skills that they've developed
and the the culture.

437
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,640
Now if I can sit down, which I
did recently with the CEO for

438
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,920
five hour discussion, five hours
it went on where we talked about

439
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,200
building culture.
We talked about how to engage

440
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:44,760
employees as part of the
solution.

441
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,800
We talked to them about how to
change behaviours.

442
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,840
We talked about how to build
policies and procedures that are

443
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,440
that are descriptive, not
prescriptive.

444
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,240
You know, so that it's not yes,
no do don'ts, but it's more it's

445
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,760
cultural, it's values driven.
Now that's a company that I

446
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,680
think is gonna go places.
That's a company that I think

447
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,280
has got great leadership.
The CEO is thinking their

448
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,640
management team is consistent.
It's been driven throughout the

449
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,960
organization.
There's a consistent messaging.

450
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:22,200
There's a consistent culture.
There's a, you know, there's a

451
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,120
value system that goes to that
organization and it's something

452
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,440
that people buy in and you can
feel it when you walk into the

453
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,000
organization and you can feel
the passion that they've got for

454
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:38,040
doing the right thing, for not
cheating, for not being corrupt,

455
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,600
for not winning business
inappropriately.

456
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,480
You know, it's, it's a, it's a,
it's a thing, it's a feeling in

457
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,720
this company.
So whether it's a corruption

458
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,600
issue, it's a carbon issue, it's
an energy management, when you

459
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,920
get inside these companies, you
can feel it and it's, it's not

460
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,760
rubbish, You know, it's not
total BS.

461
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,160
They're not just telling the
order to a whole bunch of crap.

462
00:26:58,160 --> 00:26:59,840
You know, I'm smart enough to
work through all that.

463
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,800
You know, I, you can tell when
it's strong.

464
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,200
And so, yeah, look, there are
companies that are out there

465
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,720
doing it and doing it really
well.

466
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,880
But they're the ones that have
passion, belief, they have a

467
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,560
value system.
They don't compromise those

468
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,160
values.
They take it seriously.

469
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,680
They push it through the
organization.

470
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,160
They challenge people to think
differently.

471
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,120
They drive different behaviours,
they work descriptively, not

472
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,960
proscriptively.
They're the companies that get

473
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,840
it.
So that to me is what we need.

474
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,360
It's purpose driven, it's values
driven, It is an organization

475
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:40,480
that buys in and goes for it.
Now, whether it's on AG topic or

476
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,160
an E topic or an S topic or the
whole thing, that's when I see

477
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,280
it working.
Everything I've just said in the

478
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,320
opposite one of those companies
that are just doing it for, to

479
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,920
ticket box or doing it for to
push out a statement on the

480
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,280
website and you know, as in
order to, you know, we can smell

481
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,440
that a mile away.
You know, you can get into the

482
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,000
first meeting, you can tell
straight away.

483
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,200
You can look at their documents
and tell straight away.

484
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,400
It doesn't take very long to to
get to the bottom of that

485
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,400
question.
So, so there are companies out

486
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,360
there that are doing it, but I
must say there's it's a, it's a

487
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,440
short list, but it is getting,
but it is getting bigger.

488
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,800
And it's called Let's try to
make an exercise, exercise

489
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,720
looking at the future now, the
future of ESG leadership.

490
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,760
So when you look five years
ahead, what do you think will

491
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,520
define the next phase of ESG?
Yeah.

492
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,440
Good question.
I, I think the biggest question

493
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,240
actually comes down to products
and services and, and let me

494
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,120
explain that.
I think what the world has done

495
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,320
is, you know, what companies
have done is they've said, look,

496
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:51,760
we need to get on the
sustainability thing.

497
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:56,640
So let's let's take our existing
products and let's make a more

498
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,040
sustainable version of it.
So let's instead of using this

499
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,600
particular bottle top, we're
going to use that particular

500
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,400
bottle top.
Or instead of using this sort of

501
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,120
plastic, we're going to use a
slightly different sort of

502
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,960
plastic call.
So, you know, companies have

503
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,560
looked at their customers and
said, let's let's give them a

504
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,400
new product with a portion of
that product being more

505
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,440
sustainable.
And those companies should love

506
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,200
it.
Those companies, sorry, those

507
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,000
customers should love it.
They should be very happy that

508
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,760
we are now providing them with a
more eco friend fee or a more

509
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,720
sustainable product.
That's what's happened in the

510
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,920
past.
And I think that's a flawed

511
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,480
model.
I think that is absolutely

512
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,920
flawed.
You know, no one asked me

513
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,800
whether I wanted a paper straw.
I would have very comfortably

514
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,400
told you that I did not want a
paper straw.

515
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,280
Hyper straws are not effective.
When I buy a straw or use a

516
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,840
straw, I want a job to be done.
I want to take a liquid and I

517
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,720
want to reverse gravity and move
that liquid upwards and it needs

518
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,960
to be done.
So over a long period of time,

519
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,320
hyper straws don't set that
purpose.

520
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,200
So this was something that
accompanies threw upon us as

521
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:10,800
consumers the new world in five
years time, hopefully maybe

522
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,960
somewhat different.
I'm hoping that companies can

523
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:21,120
start to work out the fact that
the customer is at the centre of

524
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:25,040
sustainability, not them, not
the company, not the company's

525
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,520
purpose, not the company's
opinion, not the company's

526
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,560
sustainability pledges or net 0,
whatever.

527
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,000
It's the customer and the
customer is going to pull

528
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,840
sustainability.
So think about it, you've got a

529
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,080
company that's pushing
sustainable products or you've

530
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,760
got a customer who is pulling
sustainable products.

531
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,320
We need to get at a customers
pulling sustainability products.

532
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,800
So instead of pushing a product
to a customer that just happens

533
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,280
to have some sort of
sustainability label, which very

534
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,680
few people care about, very even
less people will pay money for

535
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,120
over and above a non sustainable
product.

536
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,920
So we need to think about how we
do pull rather than push.

537
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,400
We need to be thinking about how
consumers and customers drive

538
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,000
the sustainability bargain, not
companies.

539
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,080
So that is where I think it will
go.

540
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,240
So I think it will be more
nuanced.

541
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,160
I think it will be more
intelligent.

542
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,320
I think it will be more customer
driven.

543
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,520
I think it will be more
companies listening to customers

544
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,920
and giving them solutions that
the customer sees value in and

545
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,240
the customer has a willingness
to pay, which is higher than

546
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,680
what they would have previously.
Saffron will start to get

547
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,040
sustainability moving.
But if we keep trying to make a

548
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,000
buyer product or a green product
or make it, you know, a slightly

549
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,720
different packaging and we shop
that to a customer and of course

550
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,120
we make them pay more for it or
even the same, but we label it

551
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,520
as customer.
We try and make people feel good

552
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,400
because they're buying a
sustainable product.

553
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,040
I think that is just silliness.
I don't think that's going

554
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,520
anywhere.
I don't think it's ever going to

555
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,120
go anywhere.
And I think we've seen that it

556
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,400
just doesn't work.
You know, there's a people are

557
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,040
buying products because they
want a job to be done and they

558
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,760
want a functional role to play.
And when that functional role

559
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,080
includes A sustainability piece,
and it's sustainability isn't an

560
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,400
add on, but it's part of that
function and it adds value.

561
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,920
People can see that value, they
can articulate that value and

562
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:30,720
they're prepared to pay for that
value.

563
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,040
Sam, I think we've got action.
So that's where I think we'll go

564
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:35,880
in the next 5 years.
I think we'll see a very much

565
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,840
customer driven as opposed to
companies pushing.

566
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,000
I think we'll see customers
always.

567
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:49,520
Now, Scott, the the word that we
haven't uttered so far in this

568
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,160
podcast is AI, right?
So as we are looking into the

569
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:59,480
future in this segment, one of
the things that we, you know,

570
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,400
wonder about is whether AI and
automation will make ESG more

571
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,840
transparent, more effective, or
will it end up blurring the

572
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,800
accountability even further.
What's your take on that?

573
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,520
My take is this actually the
same take across all areas of

574
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:26,720
business, which is AI is an
extraordinarily development in

575
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,440
technology, both generative AI
and more importantly I think a

576
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,760
gentic AI, the ability for
agents and combined with that

577
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,760
some form of automation of
robotics and adding in

578
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,880
potentially one day a lot more
of AI intelligence, human like

579
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,000
intelligence.
I think those things together

580
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,360
are going to be the foundation
of business in the next 10

581
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,200
years.
And so sustainability is going

582
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,040
to be impacted by that just like
every other part of the

583
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,120
business.
And so whether that is applied

584
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,680
in circumstances in reporting,
for example, it could easily be

585
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:06,560
in developing programs,
potentially developing new

586
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,679
technologies to measure and
monitor definitely in order to

587
00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:15,159
adjust the electronics usage or
perhaps to adjust temperatures

588
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:20,679
or to adjust our emissions or to
adjust energy usage or to adjust

589
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,760
and be more variable and to do
things in the moment.

590
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,360
I think AI willpower all of
those things and they're all

591
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:32,120
fantastic advances that right
now, you know, we're live,

592
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,600
right?
We are relying on analogue type

593
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,360
devices.
You know, yes, no actions, very

594
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,280
simplistic, you know, not
particularly smart.

595
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,080
AI can give us that
intelligence.

596
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,239
And so, you know, whether it's a
smart thermostat on the wall,

597
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,960
you know, we used to call
thermostats on the wall smart

598
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,560
because they were able to be
accessed by Wi-Fi.

599
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,360
I think the answer is that
that's still pretty dumb when it

600
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,760
comes to the world of AI.
The world of AI will make that

601
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:03,520
smart thermostat into an
extremely bright predictive

602
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,400
thermostat.
That's what AI will do.

603
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,160
So we need to move beyond
thinking things are smart

604
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,280
because they're Wi-Fi connected
and turning things into what AI,

605
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:17,240
which will change that role of
the thermostat 50 times what

606
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:18,840
it's more powerful than it does
now.

607
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,080
And that's when I think AI will
really impact.

608
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,680
And so that will be right across
the whole world, right across

609
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,400
all of our businesses.
And frankly, we need to jump on

610
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,280
board and get used to it and get
comfortable with it.

611
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,040
My team is vibe coding.
I'm vibe coding, You know, we're

612
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,240
all developing agents.
We're all working on things in

613
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,520
the sustainability field.
And the answer is associate

614
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,440
everyone else.
And now just to close, Scott, so

615
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,080
if you can give one piece of
advice to ACEO, who wants to

616
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,520
lead with integrity and what
that would be?

617
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,920
Courage.
Have some courage.

618
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,880
Have a value system, a belief
system for your organization and

619
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,280
have some courage.
You know, stop thinking short

620
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,160
term.
Start thinking medium to long.

621
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,520
I would encourage them to really
listen to their customers and

622
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:06,960
find out what their customer
wants.

623
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,480
Rather than pushing.
I'd, I'd look at that pool.

624
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,400
I would tell them not to be
swayed by some political

625
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,760
actions.
And what I'd also say is stop.

626
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,560
You know, firstly, I'd also say
on that one, I'd also say stop

627
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:25,120
being hostage, held hostage by
laws and politicians.

628
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,000
Stop being held a hostage.
You know, they're making you

629
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,440
hostage right now.
You're at the hostage of what

630
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,160
the law says.
You're at the hostage of what

631
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,600
the regulations say.
You're at the hostage of what

632
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,360
the law or the customer of the
government tells you.

633
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,160
You don't have to be held
hostage.

634
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,080
There is no way you should be
held hostage.

635
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,720
You should be developing your
strategy for your organization,

636
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:47,720
which includes A sustainability
strategy.

637
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,080
You should be doing that.
You don't have to be held

638
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,840
hostage by anyone.
You're that secure base that you

639
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,200
have in your organization and
you need to be be that against

640
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,360
your peers and against your
organizations that you work

641
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,280
with.
You're the secure base leader

642
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,360
and you need to drive that
dialogue.

643
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,080
And you did not be held hostage
to a politician.

644
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,400
You do not be held hostage to a
government or a reporting agency

645
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,000
or a standard.
You drive it where you need to

646
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,600
drive it.
That's what I would say in in

647
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,680
order to do that, what I'd say
to that CEO is you need to go

648
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,080
back to school.
You need to go back to school

649
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,520
and need to learn because these
issues of ESD and sustainability

650
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,480
are not things that you studied
at university.

651
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,920
They did not appear on your MBA
list.

652
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,040
They did not appear in your
school list or your sales or law

653
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,920
degree, whatever it was, they
were not there.

654
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,480
So the chances are you do not
have sufficient knowledge, you

655
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,760
do not have a broad
understanding of these topics

656
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,440
and how to influence and drive
behaviour and how to lead and

657
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,000
courage.
So you need to go back to school

658
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,440
and you need to get those
because the world has changed.

659
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,440
Sustainability and AI, digital
transformations are going to

660
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,280
change the way we operate.
Going to a two day conference or

661
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,040
reading a book is not enough.
That CEO needs to go and learn a

662
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,320
whole new way of thinking.
And hopefully the more that CEOs

663
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,600
will do that, the more that they
will get that intellectual

664
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,520
courage, the more that they will
start to be true leaders when we

665
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,680
start to come and fix these
issues that we've got.

666
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:16,200
All right.
I take away from that was

667
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,840
courage Scott Lane, CEO and
Founder of Speake.

668
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,200
Scott, thanks so much for
joining us on Sustainability for

669
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,080
Today.
You're welcome guys, and thank

670
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,480
you very much.
And yes, if I would lead or

671
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,000
finalize with one thing, I would
say you're right.

672
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,400
It is absolutely courageous.
It's, it's, it is something that

673
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,080
we need more of courage and
great leadership.

674
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,840
That's what we need to fix these
problems.

675
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,800
Absolutely.
And to our listeners, if you

676
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,720
enjoyed this episode, follow us
on LinkedIn, go to our website,

677
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:50,840
sustainabilityforward.com, and
subscribe to our podcast

678
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,440
wherever you get your podcast
for more conversations on the

679
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,720
business of sustainability.
This is your host, Rishi,

680
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:00,960
signing off.
Carmen, thanks for joining me on

681
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,760
this episode.
Thank you, Rishi, and thank you,

682
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:04,880
Scott.
Great discussion.

683
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,280
Take care, bye.