Dec. 16, 2025
Same Sun, Different Stories - The Renewable Boom in India and Pakistan
What happens when people stop waiting for the grid — and build their own energy transition instead?
In this episode of Sustainability Forward, Wrishi and Carmine travel across India and Pakistan to unpack one of the most dynamic – and least understood – clean energy stories in the world.
Wrishi draws on childhood memories of Indian power cuts and today’s giant solar parks to explain how India became a renewables heavyweight: ambitious national targets, ultra-cheap solar auctions, and state-level champions like Gujarat and Rajasthan. At the same time, coal still acts as India’s safety blanket, revealing the tensions at the heart of its energy politics.
Then the focus shifts to Pakistan, where the official numbers say renewables are tiny – but rooftops tell a very different story. We explore:
The silent rooftop solar boom reshaping homes, factories and farms
How cheap panels and batteries are changing daily life under chronic load-shedding
The hidden risks around grid finances, groundwater, and energy inequality
What “getting it right” could look like over the next decade
Two countries under the same sun, facing different constraints, making different mistakes – and offering powerful lessons for the global energy transition.
🎧 Listen in if you care about climate, development, or just want to understand what the energy transition really feels like on the ground.
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Welcome to Sustainability
Forward.
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My name is Rishi, I'm your host
and as always with me is my Co
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host Carmen.
How are you, Carmen?
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Hello, Rishi.
Very good.
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Thank you.
OK Carmen, today's episode is
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just a between the two of us,
but we have an interesting
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topic.
It's the story of how the same
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sun can create two different
stories in two different
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countries.
In this case, the two countries
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are India and Pakistan.
And we are going to explore how
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the renewable boom has
progressed in these two
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countries in the past few years.
Sounds exciting.
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Yeah, it is especially exciting
for me because for I was born in
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India, spent most of my
childhood and growing up years
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in India.
And I remember very clearly
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growing up in India, power cuts
became almost like a personality
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trait.
It became part of daily life
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because even you know, in the,
in the summer in, in 40° heat,
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all of a sudden electricity
would disappear.
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The fan will stop working and
the whole neighborhood would go
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dark.
And everyone would say in
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different languages, primarily
in Hindi saying, oh, current
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telegate, which basically means
actually electricity is gone.
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And that was my experience of
growing up in in India 20-30
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years ago.
And I can imagine at the moment
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the frustration all on the
entire St. coming up.
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Yeah, totally.
And and and invariably there was
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this one family somewhere down
the lane who bought diesel
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generator and whenever the power
went, that family and their home
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would light up like like like an
evening on on Diwali day.
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Many kids hated him and that
family and and quite a few loved
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him also for for the exact same
reason.
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So let's imagine to Fast forward
a couple of decades and swap the
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diesel generator for a much more
silent rooftop solar and a
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battery.
Yeah.
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And and now in some Indian
cities, when the grid trips, you
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see these scattered little
islands of light.
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And this time it's not diesel or
in these little islands, it's
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actually solar.
And that image, one St. same
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heat, some sky, but very
different levels of resilience.
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It's kind of the story we're
talking today.
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Irish.
Yes, we are.
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So on one side, India, which has
become a renewables heavyweight,
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on the other side we have
Pakistan where even though the
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official numbers look modest,
behind the scene there is a
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rooftop solar revolution that
has started.
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Nice.
So today, sustainability
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forward, we are talking about
the unprecedented growth of
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renewables in India and
Pakistan.
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But it feels like on the ground
what the queue, a few key
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numbers tell us and what it may
mean for the next decade of the
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energy transition.
So let's zoom for a second.
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The global picture is pretty
simple.
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Most of the new power capacity,
the word that the last year was
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renewable and solar and the wind
did most of that work.
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Yes.
And I think we looked at this in
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in a couple of different
episodes where we talked about
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how the International Energy
agencies energy outlook is
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basically saying over this
decade, most of the growth in
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electricity demand will actually
be met by renewables and not
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fossil fuels.
And that's a huge shift from
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even 10 to 15 years ago.
You'll remember coming in when
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probably when around the time
when we started working, this
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did not look like, you know, a
possibility.
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And and yet we have, you know, a
situation where most of the new
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demand is being met by solar and
wind.
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And India is one of the big
engines behind that shift.
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It is.
It is if you actually start
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looking at the numbers provided
by the Indian government, it is
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clearly in the top tier for, you
know, solar and wind capacity.
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But here is kind of the symbolic
bits that I really like.
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You know, India had a target
that half of its installed power
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capacity should be coming from
non fossil fuel sources by 2030,
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but already it's basically
crossed that line on a capacity
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basis.
That's a big narrative shift
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from what we get to use that
talks about renewables are
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coming to renewables are how the
system.
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Yes, and and they're still
aiming for around 500 gigawatts
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of non fossil capacity by 2030.
So solar, wind, hydro, nuclear,
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basically all in.
There's also an industrial story
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behind that.
India has been pushing domestic
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solar manufacturing so it's not
totally dependent on import for
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panels and cells.
Yeah.
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And that matters because for
years the joke was that India is
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on a solar mission, whereas
China has the solar factories.
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But that seems to be a balancing
out a little bit and and changes
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changes started to happen.
So let's understand how it
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really happened.
So from the inside, as someone
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who grew up there and a works in
this space, if I ask you why did
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renewable explode in India and
the way they did?
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Well, that's what will be your
short your short list.
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So I would say three things
first.
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A.
Clear national target, those big
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2020 and 2030 numbers gave the
ministries and the utilities
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something concrete to chase.
Second is related to competitive
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auctions.
Reverse auctions for solar and
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wind drove prices down
dramatically and created a lot
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of investor confidence.
And finally, state level
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champions states like Gujarat,
Rajasthan, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka
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and Andhra have really leaned in
providing land grid access and
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and favorable local policies.
So clear national targets,
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competitive actions, state level
champions, but give us a little
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bit of texture.
What does it look like on the
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ground?
Yeah, so we talked about
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Rajasthan, where you've got the
Padla Solar Park.
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It's basically a sea of solar
panels disappearing into the
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horizon.
Huge, huge solar park.
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I saw some pictures the other
day and people were claiming,
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you know, even the satellites
cannot capture, you know, the,
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the whole park in one shot.
It's such a huge solar park with
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such a big footprint.
And then in the South, in Tamil
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Nadu, long stretches of highways
are aligned with wind turbines.
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In Gujarat, on the on the West
Coast.
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These clusters, where solar,
wind and industry all sit
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together, are now turning the
state into a big, clean power
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hub.
So I use a lot of big stuff.
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So scale.
So it's very much like an
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utility scale.
First story Big parks lock
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transmissions lines, national
tenders.
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Yeah, exactly.
So even though we started our
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episode by talking about, you
know, how solar has come into
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homes, but the the big story of
India is actually told in in
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gigawatts and kilometers of high
voltage lines.
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And I guess it's not all a
smooth sailing.
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And not at all.
India still gets most of it's
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actual electricity generation
from coal even though the
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capacity makes looks very green.
Coal still carries evening peak
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and the bad weather it is.
So you have got a lot of solar
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and wind installed, but not at
all it runs at the time and the
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great as to juggle it right?
You get afternoons with with
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plenty of solar in some regions
and then sharp peaks in the
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evening where everyone comes
home, switches everything on and
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suddenly you're back leaning
hard on coal.
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And on top of that, long term
plans for India still include
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new coal capacity to keep up
with demand growth.
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And I guess this would probably
change with with batteries
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coming to the grid and balancing
this.
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So Linda in the meantime is in
the width in between place
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renewable, our mainstream, but
coal is still the safety
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blanket.
Yeah, exactly.
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I mean, it's this good tension
that is in the heart of India's
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energy politics right now.
Good, so let's cross the border.
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Let's go to Pakistan.
When I talk to some people
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outside the region about
Pakistan, the world that always
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comes up is load shedding.
Yeah.
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Now, well, coming across in the
border, physically it's much
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more difficult.
It's much easier in a podcast,
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one of the most challenging
international borders I think we
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have in the world today.
But leaving that aside, if you
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are in Karachi or Lahore, which
are a couple of the big cities
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in Pakistan or even in a smaller
town, you live around power cuts
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and and high electricity bills,
right?
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It shapes everything when you
cook, when you work, and even
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when kids can study.
Everything centers around when
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low, you know inexpensive
electricity is available.
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Underneath that everyday
experience, what does a Pakistan
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power system actually look like?
Yeah.
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So very roughly, and I'm by no
means an expert in this, a big
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share of power generation is
still from fossil fuels,
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including expensive imported
fuels.
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Let's also bear in mind that
Pakistan doesn't have a lot of
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energy producing natural
resources within it's domestic
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borders.
The second is hydropower.
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The countries in fact, you know,
rich in in hydropower because
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because quite a few rivers flow
through it.
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So it's very important, but
very, very seasonal.
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And officially wind, solar and
biomass are just a small slice
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of total grid generation today.
So if you look at the official
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mix and clearly Pakistan doesn't
have or doesn't look like a
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renewable story at all.
Yeah, I can imagine.
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There is also the money side
here, the financial aspect.
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Yes, indeed.
So the sector is weighed down by
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what is called what is called
circular debt, a chain of unpaid
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bills where distribution
companies do not collect enough,
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so they can't pay the
generators, who then cannot pay
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the fuel suppliers.
So it's like a vicious circle of
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debt moving from one entity to
the other.
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Yeah, because the old fashion
losses, theft, put
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infrastructure things literally
leaking out of the system.
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Exactly.
Some analysis of Pakistan's
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official data suggests that
around 1/5 of the electricity
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generated never shows up as paid
for energy.
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Right.
That's a huge hole before you
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even talk about climate or
energy transition.
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And we talked in the past about
the energy efficiency, a
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problem.
But yeah, now I never been in
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Pakistan, but from a distance,
you see an underperforming,
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great, high tariff, big death.
It looks like the opposite of a
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clean energy success story.
That's the surface, right?
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But underneath that surface,
there's a completely different
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solar story happening.
Interesting.
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So let's go there, because this
part, I found it fascinating.
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On paper, renewables are tiny,
but on rooftops?
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What's happening with that?
On rooftops.
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Pakistan is a very different
country.
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In the last few years, it's
quietly become one of the
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biggest importers of solar
panels in the world.
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And we have to under score this,
right?
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One of the biggest importers of
solar panels in the world,
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right?
Pakistan, I mean, it's a
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populous country, but not that
big, not that big of an economy.
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And it has still done that,
right?
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So in the recent years, the
country imported 10s of
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gigawatts of solar modules,
amounts that are roughly on the
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scale of its entire grid
capacity.
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Wow.
And these are all going, not all
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going to giant solar parks as we
discussed for India before with
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ribbon ethics.
Yeah, yeah, right, right.
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So not, not the the not going
into the official generation of,
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of electricity.
A lot of those panels are
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actually going on top of homes,
small businesses, mosques,
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schools, factories.
People are putting panels
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wherever they can find a bit of
roof or open land.
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Interesting.
So this is the end user driving
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all this.
So you end up with this
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unofficial distributed power
system on top of the official
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one.
Yeah.
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And you may remember, I mean
many years ago with hard the,
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the, the three terms
decarbonize, decarbonized,
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distributed and digitalized,
right.
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So that middle one is certainly
true for Pakistan at this these
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00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,720
days.
So regulators might see a few
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gigawatts of registered net
metered solar.
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But if you add in the off grid
systems, the the backup systems,
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the you know I just slapped
panels on my roof systems, the
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real installed solar is many
times higher.
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Interesting, and people are
paying that with batteries now.
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Yeah, yeah.
As panel prices dropped, lithium
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ion batteries started to follow.
Pakistan's importing significant
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volumes of battery storage,
enough that you now have homes
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and businesses running fans,
fridges, machinery during
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outages, using rooftop solar and
batteries rather than diesel
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generators.
Yeah, and I hear him a lot of
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stories there.
For example, a Texan meal that
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went solar to stop losing
production every time the power
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00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,320
cut was knocker clapped at
rounds on solar so people can
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keep it playing in the 40° heat.
Yeah, exactly.
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If you walk through industrial
areas or middle class
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00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:39,240
neighborhoods, everyone has a
The grid was killing my business
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00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,760
so I went solar type of story.
And you now start to see that
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00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,560
show this shop statistically in
a strange ways to like the time
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00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,840
the demand dropping in certain
areas because rooftop solar is
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00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,000
doing so much the work locally.
Yeah, which is extraordinary for
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a country that officially still
has only a few percent
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renewables in its generation
mix.
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00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:12,800
And we know reaching the energy
world, nothing is every ever
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00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,079
simple.
Solar in Pakistan is clearly a
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00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,640
lifeline, but it's also creating
a new challenges, I guess,
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right?
Yes, indeed.
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So three big ones in particular.
First, the grids finances From a
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utilities perspective, what's
happening actually looks a
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00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,280
little bit scary.
So you're best paying customers,
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00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,840
industry, commercial users,
middle class households are
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00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,600
installing solar so they buy
less from the grid.
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So the fixed costs of the grid
power plants lines that.
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They, however, continue to stay
the same, so the cost of the
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00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,360
system gets pushed onto a
smaller pool of people who can't
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00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:06,720
afford solar.
Just think I guess this is This
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00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,800
is why the government has been
rethinking net measuring the
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00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,480
price he pays for surplus roof
of solar exported back to the
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00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,920
grid.
Exactly, there's a pressure to
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00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,240
cut the buyback tariff to
protect poorer non solar
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00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,280
customers from cross subsidizing
richer ones.
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Right?
It makes sense on paper, but if
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you are a solar homeowner it
feels like the rules are
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changing halfway through the
game.
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And 2nd the Water Story.
That one really surprised me.
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That's not aware.
Yeah, in rural areas, especially
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in Punjab, one of the biggest
provinces of Pakistan, farmers
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00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,640
have been moving from diesel
pumps to solar powered tube
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wells.
Economically, it's brilliant.
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No fuel cost, no waiting for the
grid.
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00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,760
But when pumping feels free,
people naturally pump more
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00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,040
water.
You see more water hungry crops,
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00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,320
more hours of pumping and the
risk of over extracting
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groundwater starts to build up.
So climate friendly energy meets
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00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,640
old school water politics.
Exactly.
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00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,160
There are, as we always say,
there are no free lunches,
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00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,440
right?
Solar is cleaning up part of the
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energy system, but without good
water governance, it can
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00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:38,160
accelerate A groundwater crisis.
The third thing that we should
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00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,600
mention here is fairness.
So who actually gets to go solar
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00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,320
in Pakistan right now?
OK so mostly people with money,
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a roof and access to finance,
which is by the way not very
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common for vast majority of the
population.
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00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,680
Better off households, big
shops, farms, industry.
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00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,720
They all have the potential to
to go solar.
288
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,880
Lower income families or people
in dense housing.
289
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,720
Often don't have the you know,
the capital or physical space
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00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,640
they end up with.
A2 tier system. 1 tier of people
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00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,600
who can exit the grid partially
with solar and batteries.
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00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,240
Another tier stuck with an
expensive, unreliable grid and
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00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:33,080
no real alternative.
Solar becomes then both the last
294
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:39,360
line and fault line.
Yeah, and Pakistan is not alone
295
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,680
in that.
But because the rooftop boom has
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00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,240
been so fast, you see these
tensions very.
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00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,600
Clearly.
So let's stay there in Pakistan
298
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,280
for a bit longer and because
that if if you think about the
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00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,440
next decade, what does in
getting it right look like?
300
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:08,000
And again, I'd like to highlight
three priorities #1 plan with
301
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,520
rooftop solar, not against it.
I think the country has to
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00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,720
accept that distributed solar is
now a core part of national
303
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,760
energy system, even if it is on
private rooftops.
304
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,840
Second thing within that is big
better data and forecasting
305
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,440
around it.
No, no.
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00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,040
Roughly how much of solar is out
there, where it is and how it
307
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,680
behaves.
And then design tariffs and
308
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,640
market rules, time of day
pricing, maybe even local energy
309
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,400
markets that make use of that
resource instead of fighting it.
310
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,480
The second important thing to
know is fix the plumbing of the
311
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,640
power sector.
That means reducing distribution
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00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,160
losses and test so a big chunk
of power isn't disappearing on
313
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,160
the way to the customer,
improving billing and
314
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,240
collections so the sector can
actually pay its bills, and then
315
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,320
invest in transmission and
distribution upgrades so the
316
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,240
grid can handle high solar
shares without constant
317
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,120
tripping.
It's not nothing glamorous, but
318
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:20,640
if you fix or if you rather
don't fix the pipes, it doesn't
319
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,760
matter how clean the water is.
And the third one, which you
320
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:29,800
briefly mentioned earlier, align
energy, water and social policy.
321
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,840
On water, definitely some limits
need to be put in place so that
322
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,600
solar driven irrigation doesn't
pump aquifers dry.
323
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,520
And on fairness, think about
ways to bring lower income
324
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,440
households into the transition
community.
325
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,840
Solar projects, concessional
finance or public rooftop
326
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,360
programs on schools and public
buildings that serve local
327
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:01,360
communities.
Interesting so we have this my
328
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,760
eyes plan with the rooftop solar
fix the pump link like the term
329
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,200
and then align the resources,
energy, water and then social
330
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,320
policy.
So the choice is not solar, not
331
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,720
solar is.
What kind of solar future do you
332
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,320
want?
Yes, Pakistan is going to keep
333
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:25,080
adding solar because the
economics are so compelling.
334
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:30,800
The real question is whether
that happens in a way that also
335
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,760
strengthens the grid, protects
the water and doesn't leave the
336
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,120
poorest behind.
So it's been a very dense
337
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:40,960
episode.
Let's try to summarize it.
338
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,520
If you add to some Pakistan
renewable story in one line,
339
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,560
what do you say?
I would say Pakistan is showing
340
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,960
that even a struggling grid
can't stop people from building
341
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:58,160
their own energy transition.
But unless policy catches up
342
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:04,040
that do it yourself, revolution
comes with serious risks for
343
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:08,760
equity and water.
And let's go back to India.
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00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,560
In what line?
Well, India shows what state
345
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:18,880
driven utility scale ambition
can achieve, but also how hard
346
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,040
it is to let go of coal even as
you become a renewables
347
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:27,520
powerhouse.
So today we saw two countries
348
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080
under the same sun, tackling
different problems, making
349
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,880
different mistakes, but both
pushing the frontier of what the
350
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,160
energy transition looks like in
the real world.
351
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,640
Exactly, and they are not just
case studies, they are previews
352
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,680
for what many other countries
will face as solar and batteries
353
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,600
get cheaper.
It's been a great episode,
354
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,680
Richie.
By the way, thank you for
355
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,720
sharing your personal experience
on this.
356
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,000
And to all our listeners, if
you're listening from India,
357
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,280
Pakistan or anywhere that lives
with power cuts or scary
358
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,440
electricity bills, would love to
hear your story.
359
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,560
So send us messages and we may
feature some of them in the
360
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,000
future episodes.
Absolutely.
361
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,120
Thank you for joining us on
Sustainability Forward.
362
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,240
If this conversation resonated,
share it with someone who's
363
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:27,040
stuck in a load shedding updates
WhatsApp group or try to
364
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,480
convince their family to go
solar.
365
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,440
Great episode Rishi, thank you
and see you next time.
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00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:35,760
See you next time.
00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:11,040
Welcome to Sustainability
Forward.
2
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,940
My name is Rishi, I'm your host
and as always with me is my Co
3
00:00:15,940 --> 00:00:18,240
host Carmen.
How are you, Carmen?
4
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,520
Hello, Rishi.
Very good.
5
00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,120
Thank you.
OK Carmen, today's episode is
6
00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,480
just a between the two of us,
but we have an interesting
7
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,439
topic.
It's the story of how the same
8
00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:36,560
sun can create two different
stories in two different
9
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,960
countries.
In this case, the two countries
10
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,920
are India and Pakistan.
And we are going to explore how
11
00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,920
the renewable boom has
progressed in these two
12
00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,200
countries in the past few years.
Sounds exciting.
13
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:59,440
Yeah, it is especially exciting
for me because for I was born in
14
00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,280
India, spent most of my
childhood and growing up years
15
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,120
in India.
And I remember very clearly
16
00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:13,960
growing up in India, power cuts
became almost like a personality
17
00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:17,280
trait.
It became part of daily life
18
00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,400
because even you know, in the,
in the summer in, in 40° heat,
19
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,920
all of a sudden electricity
would disappear.
20
00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:30,600
The fan will stop working and
the whole neighborhood would go
21
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,280
dark.
And everyone would say in
22
00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,640
different languages, primarily
in Hindi saying, oh, current
23
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,520
telegate, which basically means
actually electricity is gone.
24
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,640
And that was my experience of
growing up in in India 20-30
25
00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,640
years ago.
And I can imagine at the moment
26
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,200
the frustration all on the
entire St. coming up.
27
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,440
Yeah, totally.
And and and invariably there was
28
00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:04,520
this one family somewhere down
the lane who bought diesel
29
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:11,400
generator and whenever the power
went, that family and their home
30
00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:16,520
would light up like like like an
evening on on Diwali day.
31
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,840
Many kids hated him and that
family and and quite a few loved
32
00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,360
him also for for the exact same
reason.
33
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,480
So let's imagine to Fast forward
a couple of decades and swap the
34
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:36,480
diesel generator for a much more
silent rooftop solar and a
35
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,080
battery.
Yeah.
36
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:43,480
And and now in some Indian
cities, when the grid trips, you
37
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,680
see these scattered little
islands of light.
38
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,280
And this time it's not diesel or
in these little islands, it's
39
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,160
actually solar.
And that image, one St. same
40
00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,760
heat, some sky, but very
different levels of resilience.
41
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,800
It's kind of the story we're
talking today.
42
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,880
Irish.
Yes, we are.
43
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:11,760
So on one side, India, which has
become a renewables heavyweight,
44
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,480
on the other side we have
Pakistan where even though the
45
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,560
official numbers look modest,
behind the scene there is a
46
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,520
rooftop solar revolution that
has started.
47
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:27,960
Nice.
So today, sustainability
48
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,800
forward, we are talking about
the unprecedented growth of
49
00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,960
renewables in India and
Pakistan.
50
00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:39,280
But it feels like on the ground
what the queue, a few key
51
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,880
numbers tell us and what it may
mean for the next decade of the
52
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,000
energy transition.
So let's zoom for a second.
53
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:48,640
The global picture is pretty
simple.
54
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,160
Most of the new power capacity,
the word that the last year was
55
00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,040
renewable and solar and the wind
did most of that work.
56
00:03:57,280 --> 00:03:59,640
Yes.
And I think we looked at this in
57
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,120
in a couple of different
episodes where we talked about
58
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,680
how the International Energy
agencies energy outlook is
59
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,560
basically saying over this
decade, most of the growth in
60
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:15,120
electricity demand will actually
be met by renewables and not
61
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,160
fossil fuels.
And that's a huge shift from
62
00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,680
even 10 to 15 years ago.
You'll remember coming in when
63
00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,160
probably when around the time
when we started working, this
64
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,360
did not look like, you know, a
possibility.
65
00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:34,520
And and yet we have, you know, a
situation where most of the new
66
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,880
demand is being met by solar and
wind.
67
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,200
And India is one of the big
engines behind that shift.
68
00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:46,880
It is.
It is if you actually start
69
00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:51,800
looking at the numbers provided
by the Indian government, it is
70
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:58,760
clearly in the top tier for, you
know, solar and wind capacity.
71
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,320
But here is kind of the symbolic
bits that I really like.
72
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,240
You know, India had a target
that half of its installed power
73
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,560
capacity should be coming from
non fossil fuel sources by 2030,
74
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:20,200
but already it's basically
crossed that line on a capacity
75
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,840
basis.
That's a big narrative shift
76
00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,520
from what we get to use that
talks about renewables are
77
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,960
coming to renewables are how the
system.
78
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:38,360
Yes, and and they're still
aiming for around 500 gigawatts
79
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:45,160
of non fossil capacity by 2030.
So solar, wind, hydro, nuclear,
80
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,040
basically all in.
There's also an industrial story
81
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,160
behind that.
India has been pushing domestic
82
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,720
solar manufacturing so it's not
totally dependent on import for
83
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,480
panels and cells.
Yeah.
84
00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:06,040
And that matters because for
years the joke was that India is
85
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,440
on a solar mission, whereas
China has the solar factories.
86
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,680
But that seems to be a balancing
out a little bit and and changes
87
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,960
changes started to happen.
So let's understand how it
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00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,480
really happened.
So from the inside, as someone
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00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,520
who grew up there and a works in
this space, if I ask you why did
90
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,680
renewable explode in India and
the way they did?
91
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,000
Well, that's what will be your
short your short list.
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00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,280
So I would say three things
first.
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00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,440
A.
Clear national target, those big
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00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,800
2020 and 2030 numbers gave the
ministries and the utilities
95
00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,880
something concrete to chase.
Second is related to competitive
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00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,040
auctions.
Reverse auctions for solar and
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00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,760
wind drove prices down
dramatically and created a lot
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00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:06,040
of investor confidence.
And finally, state level
99
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,040
champions states like Gujarat,
Rajasthan, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka
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00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,480
and Andhra have really leaned in
providing land grid access and
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00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:21,240
and favorable local policies.
So clear national targets,
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00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,680
competitive actions, state level
champions, but give us a little
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00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,640
bit of texture.
What does it look like on the
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00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,040
ground?
Yeah, so we talked about
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00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,400
Rajasthan, where you've got the
Padla Solar Park.
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00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:40,640
It's basically a sea of solar
panels disappearing into the
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00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,680
horizon.
Huge, huge solar park.
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00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,720
I saw some pictures the other
day and people were claiming,
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00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,080
you know, even the satellites
cannot capture, you know, the,
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00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,920
the whole park in one shot.
It's such a huge solar park with
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00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,960
such a big footprint.
And then in the South, in Tamil
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00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:05,040
Nadu, long stretches of highways
are aligned with wind turbines.
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00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,360
In Gujarat, on the on the West
Coast.
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00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,600
These clusters, where solar,
wind and industry all sit
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00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,800
together, are now turning the
state into a big, clean power
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00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:22,600
hub.
So I use a lot of big stuff.
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00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,080
So scale.
So it's very much like an
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00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,440
utility scale.
First story Big parks lock
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00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,280
transmissions lines, national
tenders.
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00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,600
Yeah, exactly.
So even though we started our
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00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,320
episode by talking about, you
know, how solar has come into
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homes, but the the big story of
India is actually told in in
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00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,640
gigawatts and kilometers of high
voltage lines.
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00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,880
And I guess it's not all a
smooth sailing.
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00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,280
And not at all.
India still gets most of it's
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00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,760
actual electricity generation
from coal even though the
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00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:05,640
capacity makes looks very green.
Coal still carries evening peak
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00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,360
and the bad weather it is.
So you have got a lot of solar
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00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:15,600
and wind installed, but not at
all it runs at the time and the
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00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:22,440
great as to juggle it right?
You get afternoons with with
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00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:26,760
plenty of solar in some regions
and then sharp peaks in the
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00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,920
evening where everyone comes
home, switches everything on and
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00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,520
suddenly you're back leaning
hard on coal.
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00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,720
And on top of that, long term
plans for India still include
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00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,000
new coal capacity to keep up
with demand growth.
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00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,360
And I guess this would probably
change with with batteries
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00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,120
coming to the grid and balancing
this.
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00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,320
So Linda in the meantime is in
the width in between place
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00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,000
renewable, our mainstream, but
coal is still the safety
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00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,080
blanket.
Yeah, exactly.
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00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,640
I mean, it's this good tension
that is in the heart of India's
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00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:10,080
energy politics right now.
Good, so let's cross the border.
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00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,080
Let's go to Pakistan.
When I talk to some people
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00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,280
outside the region about
Pakistan, the world that always
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00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,760
comes up is load shedding.
Yeah.
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00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,320
Now, well, coming across in the
border, physically it's much
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00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,720
more difficult.
It's much easier in a podcast,
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00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,360
one of the most challenging
international borders I think we
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00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,560
have in the world today.
But leaving that aside, if you
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00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:44,640
are in Karachi or Lahore, which
are a couple of the big cities
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00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,600
in Pakistan or even in a smaller
town, you live around power cuts
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00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,640
and and high electricity bills,
right?
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00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:56,800
It shapes everything when you
cook, when you work, and even
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00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:00,720
when kids can study.
Everything centers around when
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00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:07,200
low, you know inexpensive
electricity is available.
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00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,560
Underneath that everyday
experience, what does a Pakistan
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00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:14,680
power system actually look like?
Yeah.
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00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,800
So very roughly, and I'm by no
means an expert in this, a big
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00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,480
share of power generation is
still from fossil fuels,
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00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,960
including expensive imported
fuels.
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00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,800
Let's also bear in mind that
Pakistan doesn't have a lot of
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00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:37,000
energy producing natural
resources within it's domestic
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00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,840
borders.
The second is hydropower.
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00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,200
The countries in fact, you know,
rich in in hydropower because
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00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,240
because quite a few rivers flow
through it.
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00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,280
So it's very important, but
very, very seasonal.
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00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,600
And officially wind, solar and
biomass are just a small slice
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00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,920
of total grid generation today.
So if you look at the official
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00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,880
mix and clearly Pakistan doesn't
have or doesn't look like a
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00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,320
renewable story at all.
Yeah, I can imagine.
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00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,760
There is also the money side
here, the financial aspect.
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00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,360
Yes, indeed.
So the sector is weighed down by
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00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,680
what is called what is called
circular debt, a chain of unpaid
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00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:27,920
bills where distribution
companies do not collect enough,
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00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,400
so they can't pay the
generators, who then cannot pay
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00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,520
the fuel suppliers.
So it's like a vicious circle of
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00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,680
debt moving from one entity to
the other.
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00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,960
Yeah, because the old fashion
losses, theft, put
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00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,880
infrastructure things literally
leaking out of the system.
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00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,640
Exactly.
Some analysis of Pakistan's
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00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,680
official data suggests that
around 1/5 of the electricity
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00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:02,400
generated never shows up as paid
for energy.
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00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,960
Right.
That's a huge hole before you
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00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,920
even talk about climate or
energy transition.
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00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,480
And we talked in the past about
the energy efficiency, a
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00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,080
problem.
But yeah, now I never been in
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00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,440
Pakistan, but from a distance,
you see an underperforming,
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00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,920
great, high tariff, big death.
It looks like the opposite of a
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00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,120
clean energy success story.
That's the surface, right?
190
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,320
But underneath that surface,
there's a completely different
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00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,440
solar story happening.
Interesting.
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00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,560
So let's go there, because this
part, I found it fascinating.
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00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,520
On paper, renewables are tiny,
but on rooftops?
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00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,000
What's happening with that?
On rooftops.
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00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,720
Pakistan is a very different
country.
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00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,480
In the last few years, it's
quietly become one of the
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00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,360
biggest importers of solar
panels in the world.
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00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,720
And we have to under score this,
right?
199
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,480
One of the biggest importers of
solar panels in the world,
200
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,800
right?
Pakistan, I mean, it's a
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00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,680
populous country, but not that
big, not that big of an economy.
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00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,520
And it has still done that,
right?
203
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,000
So in the recent years, the
country imported 10s of
204
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,520
gigawatts of solar modules,
amounts that are roughly on the
205
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,120
scale of its entire grid
capacity.
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00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,720
Wow.
And these are all going, not all
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00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,920
going to giant solar parks as we
discussed for India before with
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00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,120
ribbon ethics.
Yeah, yeah, right, right.
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00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:40,560
So not, not the the not going
into the official generation of,
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00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,280
of electricity.
A lot of those panels are
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00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:48,400
actually going on top of homes,
small businesses, mosques,
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00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,120
schools, factories.
People are putting panels
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00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,840
wherever they can find a bit of
roof or open land.
214
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,520
Interesting.
So this is the end user driving
215
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,960
all this.
So you end up with this
216
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,440
unofficial distributed power
system on top of the official
217
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,800
one.
Yeah.
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00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,960
And you may remember, I mean
many years ago with hard the,
219
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:18,200
the, the three terms
decarbonize, decarbonized,
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00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,440
distributed and digitalized,
right.
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00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,000
So that middle one is certainly
true for Pakistan at this these
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00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,720
days.
So regulators might see a few
223
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,080
gigawatts of registered net
metered solar.
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00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,840
But if you add in the off grid
systems, the the backup systems,
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00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,960
the you know I just slapped
panels on my roof systems, the
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00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,600
real installed solar is many
times higher.
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00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,520
Interesting, and people are
paying that with batteries now.
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00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:53,000
Yeah, yeah.
As panel prices dropped, lithium
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00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,920
ion batteries started to follow.
Pakistan's importing significant
230
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,080
volumes of battery storage,
enough that you now have homes
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00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,560
and businesses running fans,
fridges, machinery during
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00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,360
outages, using rooftop solar and
batteries rather than diesel
233
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,920
generators.
Yeah, and I hear him a lot of
234
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,160
stories there.
For example, a Texan meal that
235
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,080
went solar to stop losing
production every time the power
236
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,320
cut was knocker clapped at
rounds on solar so people can
237
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,440
keep it playing in the 40° heat.
Yeah, exactly.
238
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,680
If you walk through industrial
areas or middle class
239
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:39,240
neighborhoods, everyone has a
The grid was killing my business
240
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,760
so I went solar type of story.
And you now start to see that
241
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,560
show this shop statistically in
a strange ways to like the time
242
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,840
the demand dropping in certain
areas because rooftop solar is
243
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,000
doing so much the work locally.
Yeah, which is extraordinary for
244
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,240
a country that officially still
has only a few percent
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00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,160
renewables in its generation
mix.
246
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:12,800
And we know reaching the energy
world, nothing is every ever
247
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,079
simple.
Solar in Pakistan is clearly a
248
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:19,640
lifeline, but it's also creating
a new challenges, I guess,
249
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,359
right?
Yes, indeed.
250
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:30,480
So three big ones in particular.
First, the grids finances From a
251
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,640
utilities perspective, what's
happening actually looks a
252
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,280
little bit scary.
So you're best paying customers,
253
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,840
industry, commercial users,
middle class households are
254
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,600
installing solar so they buy
less from the grid.
255
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:52,080
So the fixed costs of the grid
power plants lines that.
256
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,160
They, however, continue to stay
the same, so the cost of the
257
00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,360
system gets pushed onto a
smaller pool of people who can't
258
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:06,720
afford solar.
Just think I guess this is This
259
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,800
is why the government has been
rethinking net measuring the
260
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,480
price he pays for surplus roof
of solar exported back to the
261
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,920
grid.
Exactly, there's a pressure to
262
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,240
cut the buyback tariff to
protect poorer non solar
263
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,280
customers from cross subsidizing
richer ones.
264
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:31,360
Right?
It makes sense on paper, but if
265
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,640
you are a solar homeowner it
feels like the rules are
266
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,400
changing halfway through the
game.
267
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,560
And 2nd the Water Story.
That one really surprised me.
268
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,240
That's not aware.
Yeah, in rural areas, especially
269
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,960
in Punjab, one of the biggest
provinces of Pakistan, farmers
270
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,640
have been moving from diesel
pumps to solar powered tube
271
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,080
wells.
Economically, it's brilliant.
272
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,560
No fuel cost, no waiting for the
grid.
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00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,760
But when pumping feels free,
people naturally pump more
274
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,040
water.
You see more water hungry crops,
275
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,320
more hours of pumping and the
risk of over extracting
276
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:16,920
groundwater starts to build up.
So climate friendly energy meets
277
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,640
old school water politics.
Exactly.
278
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,160
There are, as we always say,
there are no free lunches,
279
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,440
right?
Solar is cleaning up part of the
280
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,840
energy system, but without good
water governance, it can
281
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:38,160
accelerate A groundwater crisis.
The third thing that we should
282
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:43,600
mention here is fairness.
So who actually gets to go solar
283
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,320
in Pakistan right now?
OK so mostly people with money,
284
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,720
a roof and access to finance,
which is by the way not very
285
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,320
common for vast majority of the
population.
286
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,680
Better off households, big
shops, farms, industry.
287
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,720
They all have the potential to
to go solar.
288
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,880
Lower income families or people
in dense housing.
289
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,720
Often don't have the you know,
the capital or physical space
290
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,640
they end up with.
A2 tier system. 1 tier of people
291
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,600
who can exit the grid partially
with solar and batteries.
292
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,240
Another tier stuck with an
expensive, unreliable grid and
293
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:33,080
no real alternative.
Solar becomes then both the last
294
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:39,360
line and fault line.
Yeah, and Pakistan is not alone
295
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,680
in that.
But because the rooftop boom has
296
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,240
been so fast, you see these
tensions very.
297
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,600
Clearly.
So let's stay there in Pakistan
298
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,280
for a bit longer and because
that if if you think about the
299
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,440
next decade, what does in
getting it right look like?
300
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:08,000
And again, I'd like to highlight
three priorities #1 plan with
301
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,520
rooftop solar, not against it.
I think the country has to
302
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,720
accept that distributed solar is
now a core part of national
303
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,760
energy system, even if it is on
private rooftops.
304
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,840
Second thing within that is big
better data and forecasting
305
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,440
around it.
No, no.
306
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,040
Roughly how much of solar is out
there, where it is and how it
307
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,680
behaves.
And then design tariffs and
308
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,640
market rules, time of day
pricing, maybe even local energy
309
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,400
markets that make use of that
resource instead of fighting it.
310
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,480
The second important thing to
know is fix the plumbing of the
311
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,640
power sector.
That means reducing distribution
312
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:57,160
losses and test so a big chunk
of power isn't disappearing on
313
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:01,160
the way to the customer,
improving billing and
314
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:06,240
collections so the sector can
actually pay its bills, and then
315
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,320
invest in transmission and
distribution upgrades so the
316
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,240
grid can handle high solar
shares without constant
317
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,120
tripping.
It's not nothing glamorous, but
318
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if you fix or if you rather
don't fix the pipes, it doesn't
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matter how clean the water is.
And the third one, which you
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briefly mentioned earlier, align
energy, water and social policy.
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On water, definitely some limits
need to be put in place so that
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solar driven irrigation doesn't
pump aquifers dry.
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And on fairness, think about
ways to bring lower income
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households into the transition
community.
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Solar projects, concessional
finance or public rooftop
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programs on schools and public
buildings that serve local
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communities.
Interesting so we have this my
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eyes plan with the rooftop solar
fix the pump link like the term
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and then align the resources,
energy, water and then social
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policy.
So the choice is not solar, not
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solar is.
What kind of solar future do you
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want?
Yes, Pakistan is going to keep
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adding solar because the
economics are so compelling.
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The real question is whether
that happens in a way that also
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strengthens the grid, protects
the water and doesn't leave the
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poorest behind.
So it's been a very dense
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episode.
Let's try to summarize it.
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If you add to some Pakistan
renewable story in one line,
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what do you say?
I would say Pakistan is showing
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that even a struggling grid
can't stop people from building
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their own energy transition.
But unless policy catches up
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that do it yourself, revolution
comes with serious risks for
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equity and water.
And let's go back to India.
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In what line?
Well, India shows what state
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driven utility scale ambition
can achieve, but also how hard
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it is to let go of coal even as
you become a renewables
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powerhouse.
So today we saw two countries
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under the same sun, tackling
different problems, making
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00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,880
different mistakes, but both
pushing the frontier of what the
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00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,160
energy transition looks like in
the real world.
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Exactly, and they are not just
case studies, they are previews
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for what many other countries
will face as solar and batteries
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get cheaper.
It's been a great episode,
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Richie.
By the way, thank you for
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sharing your personal experience
on this.
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And to all our listeners, if
you're listening from India,
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00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,280
Pakistan or anywhere that lives
with power cuts or scary
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00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,440
electricity bills, would love to
hear your story.
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So send us messages and we may
feature some of them in the
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future episodes.
Absolutely.
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Thank you for joining us on
Sustainability Forward.
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00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,240
If this conversation resonated,
share it with someone who's
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00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:27,040
stuck in a load shedding updates
WhatsApp group or try to
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00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,480
convince their family to go
solar.
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00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,440
Great episode Rishi, thank you
and see you next time.
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See you next time.
