Trust, Transparency, and Methane: A Conversation with Georges Tijbosch of MiQ

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Welcome to Sustainability
Forward.

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After a bit of a summer break,
I'm here again on the podcast.

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My name is Rishi.
With me is my Co host.

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As always, Carmina, Carmina
welcome.

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Hey Rishi, nice to be back.
Yeah, it's been, it's been quite

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a summer in Europe.
As you know, you're probably

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suffering more than we did here
in UK, but it's hot, right?

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It's hot hanging there.
Yeah, Now, Carmen, I was

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watching this this video clip of
Steve Jobs from, I don't know,

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2025 years ago where, where he
was explaining what a podcast

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is.
Now, I didn't know.

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I didn't know how the term
podcast came about, but what he

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says is that it's basically an
amalgamation of the words iPod

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and broadcast, right?
So back in the day when the iPod

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came out, people almost could
record anything and others could

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listen to them on the Internet,
right?

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So it was basically people
broadcasting whatever they

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wanted and that content was
getting consumed through the

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iPod, right?
So iPod plus broadcast is

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podcast and 20 years later we
are still kind of carrying on

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with the trend of recording
podcasts.

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When you say that brand is so
important to give a name to all

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the industry on.
That that's right, that's right.

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Now today's episode is quite an
exciting one, Carmina, because

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because you might remember one
of our first episodes where we

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talked about the biggest
problems in sustainability.

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The, the problem of emissions
was probably the first one we

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discussed.
And within that methane

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obviously occupied a centre
stage.

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So today we have someone who,
who is shaping the conversation

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around methane when whether it's
about policy, whether it's about

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certification or technology.
So we are very excited to, to

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welcome, welcome this guest on
our podcast.

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Would you please introduce our
guest for today?

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So we have today George.
George Taibosh is the Chief

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executive and board member at
MIQ that maintain intelligence

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not-for-profit Climate Tech
Foundation, providing the

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blueprint for reduction of
methane emissions in the oil and

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gas sector alongside RMI, so the
Rock Mountain Institute and

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System IQ.
George helped launch MIQ in

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2019.
Under George the leadership MIQ

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has become the largest
certification initiative for

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maintaining emissions in the oil
and gas sector, certified over

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5% of the global gas supply.
George is the former Director of

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Origination at Centrica.
Before that, George was a

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director on a London investment
bank commodity trading desks,

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including Director of Energy
Sales at Goldman Sachs, head of

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MEA Energy Marketing at Bank of
America Merrill Lynch and Head

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of EMEA Commodity Finance at JP
Morgan.

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George began his career in 1996
at BP Benelux as Sales and

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Marketing Manager for fuels and
lubricants and joined BP London

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training floor in 2000 as Senior
Marketer, oil derivatives.

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So Judge, welcome to the show.
Thank you for being here today

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for this very exciting subject.
Great to be on on the show.

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Looking forward to it.
And also with your intro, it

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made me feel very old.
So yeah, looking forward to to

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talking about that.
Lot of experience.

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That that's very kind of you.
So, so let's start sort of in

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reverse chronological order,
George.

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We wanted to understand first
for ourselves, but also for

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audience, what is MIQ, right?
What's in the name?

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What led to its creation?
Are there other bodies like MIQ?

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But what are you trying to do
with MIQ?

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What's your mission?
That's four questions, Rishi.

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So yeah, methane MIQ, basically
it stands for Methane IQ,

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Methane intelligence.
So we're all about methane and

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what will comes without a doubt.
What?

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Why methane and the intelligence
bits comes from the fact that

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what we need in methane is, is
clarity, transparency on on the

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methane emissions and where they
take place.

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And it's not that obvious to do
this methane, but those who are

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new to the subject is invisible.
You can't smell it, you can't

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see it.
And it's small leaks, thousands

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of tiny leaks left and right and
centre across the industry.

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So it's actually quite tricky to
determine the methane emissions.

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So you need the intelligence.
So that's where the name Methane

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IQ comes from.
I've also heard that MIQ is a

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spin off of MI 5 or MI 6, but I
cannot confirm that or deny

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that.
Yeah, the intelligence part or

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the lack of lack thereof, I
think.

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Exactly.
Probably.

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Is borrowed from MIQ.
Yeah MI 6 sorry.

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So now you pre empted the
question a little bit.

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It's a topic that our audience
is aware of, but we just also

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like to hear from your
perspective, right?

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Why focus on methane And it's
and it's transparency?

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I think it's a it's a very valid
question actually, when I mean,

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you were kind of looked at my
history in, in the the more

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classical professional world was
an energy trading in.

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In summary, methane didn't pop
up.

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And then in 2020, several former
colleagues from who were then at

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RMI and systemic, they contacted
me to deal with methane.

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And I remember one of my first
reactions was methane.

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You mean gas, because methane is
the largest component of what's

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called also natural gas, which
is what we use to fire gas fired

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power stations or to cook at
home if you want to, or to heat

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the houses.
Methane is the largest component

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of that 9095% depending on on
the quality of the gas.

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But what we're talking about
here is the methane emissions,

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the methane leaks.
So the methane escaping directly

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in the atmosphere.
And I would argue until around

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2020 was totally under addressed
as a subject in climate change.

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And because everybody's always
been talking around carbon

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dioxide, CO2, that's the big,
the big one we're all talking

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about that we need to address
the problem.

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The reason why methane is so
important is because methane is,

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let's call it around 80 times
more potent than CO2.

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So molecule for molecule, if you
have one molecule of methane

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escaping into the atmosphere, it
is around 80 times more effects

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than a single molecule of CO2.
Now it also lasts shorter.

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Depending on the different
scientists methods you use,

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let's call it 12 years or 20
years.

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By 12 years it actually can
start to disappear from from the

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atmosphere, so it lasts shorter.
However, the the 80 times factor

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is key.
And so if you take the methane

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emissions, there's three big
parts on methane emissions.

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It's in the oil and gas industry
during the production and the

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transport and the transformation
of those commodities.

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Also coal industry by the way.
Secondly, agriculture and that

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is from principally from from
cattle and then all rice fields

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as well.
And then thirdly, landfill there

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there is and that's human caused
methane leaks.

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There's also obviously natural
like swamps for example.

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Those three, if you run the
calculations and again use the

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AT multiplying factor are the
cause of around 30% of all

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emissions.
And that wasn't really addressed

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I think in earlier years.
And and when I started this in

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2020, and again, I know I wasn't
the only one going like, oh,

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methane, what, what do you mean
methane?

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And so if you look at oil and
gas, and I think oil and gas is

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the interesting one from that
perspective, because oil and gas

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is 10%, we'll come to numbers
what that translates into

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because 10% of the the global
problem is enormous.

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It equates to give or take all
the cars and trucks on the

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roads, emissions now in CO2.
And we're also obviously all

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following the, I don't know, EV
debates and how we're going to

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scale away our existing cars to
different cars.

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Most of us will realize this is
going to take us decades to do

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this.
There's more than a billion cars

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on the roads.
Not everybody can straight away

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afford an EV.
And even if we have EVs, we

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still need to have windmills to
feed the electricity in there

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and maybe not coal stations
anymore.

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So it's a long road and the
difference and that's why I

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found methane for oil and gas
such an interesting 1 is that

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can actually be addressed with
existing technologies.

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There's some some small tweaks
that need to be made and some

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needs to be scaled up.
We don't need to invent

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anything.
And the other part that's

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interesting is this can be done
by large well run companies

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generally speaking.
So it is not a consumer problem,

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it's a business to business
problem.

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And that's where I think when we
started MIQ, where I see I, I

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really see the opportunity is we
can address this technology is

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there.
We don't need to invent hydrogen

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in planes, for example, for
this.

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It's not needed and it can be
done fast.

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And so the way I look at methane
emissions in oil and gas, at

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least it's something to address
this decade.

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This is not like let's talk 50
years forward.

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Yeah.
And and so it's it's it's an

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enormous opportunity.
You can call it a win win the

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low hanging through different
expressions, but it all comes

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down to the same.
I would actually say it even

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stronger.
It's the no regret option.

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We should just do this anyway,
irrelevant of how we're going to

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transform the the rest of the of
the problem.

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So that's why me saying is, is
is key in oil and gas.

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Yeah.
And when we, when we did our

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research around MIQ, we also
found sort of this information

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about the certification model,
right?

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What is it that you're actually
implementing on the ground?

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Is it sort of going side by side
and telling them and grading

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them on a certain type of
system?

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Yeah.
So the, the as I said earlier,

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methane is actually quite a
tricky 1.

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You can't see it, you can't
smell it.

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There are, there is no perfect
single methodology to measure

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the methane emissions at a
industrial production side for

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oil and gas.
So it's not like, OK, let's say

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we want to regulate speed on the
freeway.

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OK, we all have speedometers in
our cars and I'm sure they

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calibrate it, but it's quite
straightforward technology.

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And I think that here in the
here in the UKI can't remember

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the exact number, but I give you
5 miles an hour of of kind of.

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Tolerance.
Tolerance.

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And each country's got slightly
different tolerances, and that's

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fine.
But we don't dispute those

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number.
But we all try when we get

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caught, clearly.
But it's not that If I'm doing

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70 miles an hour, I might have
been doing 140 miles an hour.

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That's just not the case.
But methane emissions are much

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more complicated.
You have to imagine these oil

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platforms or production
facilities as sometimes hundreds

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of square kilometers with
thousands and or 10s of

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thousands of pipelines,
thousands of valves in the

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middle of a desert, in the
middle of nowhere, in the middle

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of a harsh ocean and in
sometimes inhospitable regime

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places.
So this is a complex problem

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actually.
And So what we've done, we what

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we want to do is we created
basically a standard to say, OK,

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this is how we're going to
determine the meat and emissions

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of a specific assets.
Here's the rules, not different

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than a financial standard
actually, because to audit your

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company you need rules as well.
Well, that's called a IFRS or UK

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cap.
So we've created the same for

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methane auditor comes in, they
follow those rules and they then

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determine what we call the
methane performance of that

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asset.
And then comes in the second

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part.
And the second part is that

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allows those producers who at
this stage of the market tend to

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be the more progressive
producers to go to the buyers of

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the gas and say actually, you
know what, I am producing gas

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and oil is coming in as well at
lower emissions, emissions of XY

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or Z.
Because I have been certified, I

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now have a proof that those were
the emissions of my production

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facility.
And So what we're doing is

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creating a market for that gas
or that transparency of gas, not

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different than if you want to
buy, I don't know, bio products

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at the supermarket is probably a
very good comparison here.

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That's quite interesting job.
Just to summarize, you said

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methane as a CO2, they have
something in common you cannot

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see, you cannot smell it.
So looks like the problem is not

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there, even though sometimes
when we look at methane in our

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homes, we smell something.
Just of course to clarify for

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the audience, there's some
additives that are on top.

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00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,520
Actually to be sure that we
smell it because it's an

228
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,760
explosive gas is dangerous.
So we need to be sure it's

229
00:13:54,760 --> 00:14:00,600
there, but in nature doesn't
doesn't smell, you also give us

230
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,840
some number.
So what I understood is 30% of

231
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:09,200
the problem more or less of
greenhouse is coming from 18.

232
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,560
You say this therefore 12 years
compared to CD is probably

233
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:19,200
shorter, but is still a big part
of the problem and we can

234
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,720
address it today.
You mentioned the industries,

235
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,600
the oil and gas and the other
industries such as agriculture

236
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,000
and the landfill.
Now going back to oil and gas

237
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,320
also a little bit based on our
experiences, I think there are

238
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,000
three sources probably where
emissions could happen.

239
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,760
And you touch on it though there
is leaking in the infrastructure

240
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,360
now when the methane has been
produced or transported around,

241
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,080
but there is also the flaring or
there is the venting.

242
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,080
So other over operation that
probably people don't realize,

243
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,160
but these are common in the IT
could be common in the

244
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,720
operations when extracting, when
extracting gas.

245
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,920
I think one of the issues there
could be that these three

246
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:09,800
sources most of the time are
very fragmented, distributed.

247
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,040
So it would be difficult for
somebody probably to solve the

248
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,640
problem as he needs to solve
many small problems.

249
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,640
Also geographic geographically
dispersed is this one-on-one.

250
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:26,640
One of the main barriers is that
operators has to solve to work

251
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,520
around to to solve this problem.
Yeah, no, I think you, you, you

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00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,040
hit the nail there on on the
head.

253
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,640
It's I often compare it a bit to
a water leak in your home or a

254
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,440
dripping tap.
You know, it's there, but gosh,

255
00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,920
it's tricky to kind of repair
that tap or there might be a

256
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:44,960
water leaking.
You see, you see it in the wall

257
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,640
and you need to open up that
wall.

258
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,240
And OK, are you?
Now imagine that thousands of

259
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:57,240
times as opposed to, I don't
know, a factory belching or

260
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,720
whichever pollutants into,
through the smoke stack into the

261
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,840
air or into a river.
That's like a single problem

262
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,280
that can be dealt with.
So yes, I I agree it sits across

263
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:14,080
the facilities at many now just
to counterbalance that a bit as

264
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,200
well.
For example, the when you do

265
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,960
flaring, you have plants that
might not be burned, which then

266
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,800
goes straight away as methane
into the the atmosphere.

267
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,120
That tends to be quite
straightforward.

268
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:28,840
Localized, yes.
Localized, yeah.

269
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,440
Now it's also not a
straightforward 1 to deal in in

270
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,080
many cases, technically
speaking.

271
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,640
So you, you have a bit of both.
So I, I think where the industry

272
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,680
got to they, because let's not
forget methane is obviously is

273
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,120
gas principally or gas is
methane rather or contains

274
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,520
methane.
It's always an explosive as

275
00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:47,960
well.
So the industry has clearly

276
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,200
already gone below the levels
where it becomes a danger for

277
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:57,200
their health and safety.
Because that is obviously the

278
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,840
first one that you, there are
very few areas where we see

279
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,920
somebody leaking, I don't know,
20% across it'd be a hazard,

280
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,319
clearly an explosive hazard.
So they've gone below there.

281
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,400
And then the second one part we
should not forget either is that

282
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,920
what an operator does not leak,
an operator can sell.

283
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,040
And that's unique in methane
versus any of the other

284
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,880
pollutants.
The other pollutants, I don't

285
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,200
know, lead, for example, you
then need to get rid of it or

286
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,200
SO2.
How do you deal with that?

287
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,920
You, you can't just sell it
generally.

288
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,240
So you need to dispose of it.
Methane is unique.

289
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,160
What they don't leak, what they
don't vent, they can sell.

290
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,240
So the, the, the, what we're
talking about is the last

291
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:44,000
percent of the last 2%.
But the key here is the 80

292
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,080
multiplying factor that that's
where it is this whole problem

293
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,240
comes from.
And so yes, you need to create a

294
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,120
comprehensive system.
And, and that's what we've done

295
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:58,200
with EMIQ standards, whereby not
only do we determine the methane

296
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,800
emissions by the performance
standards, but equally we score

297
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,440
them in that standards on how
they manage the methane

298
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,400
emissions.
So how did they deal with

299
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,920
flaring?
How did they do?

300
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:14,600
There's a process called Eldar
is leak detection and repair and

301
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,600
there is good practices and less
good practices and best

302
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,760
practices around this.
And how do the company approach

303
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,520
this?
And so we almost give them like

304
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,560
a guideline how to get better at
managing the methane and that's

305
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,280
kind of all, all included.
So it needs to be very

306
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,360
comprehensive.
And so the way we look at it is

307
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:39,480
managing methane is, is an is an
ongoing standard operating

308
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,840
procedure type of approach SOP's
called in the industry as

309
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,120
opposed to let me do a big CapEx
project, it's rarely the CapEx

310
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:53,080
project levels.
And so that's why the operators

311
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:54,600
and the engineers are key on
this.

312
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,000
This is something where we see
it from our auditors.

313
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,080
We hear it.
They, they, because our auditors

314
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,600
have to go on the site, for
example, because again, methane

315
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,440
is a complex subject.
So we want them to go on the

316
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,640
site.
They then speak with the, the,

317
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,800
the truck drivers, for example,
and, and, and they discover

318
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,240
items around methane and how
they manage it.

319
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:16,680
And, and, and, and that's key.
You need to get everybody

320
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,880
involved on, on this.
There's no quick big solution.

321
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,080
Interesting enough, George,
you've mentioned the ATX more

322
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,200
potency a couple of times.
Let me ask you this

323
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,480
controversial question.
Should then there be there be a

324
00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,280
ATX higher penalty on, on, on
methane leaks?

325
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,280
Is that something the industry
is it?

326
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,640
Is it something that we get the
industry to act?

327
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,440
So, so in a in a way, and I need
to try to remember some of the

328
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,280
numbers, but for example,
Norway's got some form of

329
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,760
penalties and I think they are
in the thousands of dollars per

330
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,800
ton.
So if you then re divide by 80,

331
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,040
you, you get to, I don't know, a
couple of dollars equivalent, I

332
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,840
can't remember the exact
numbers, but in the numbers that

333
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,640
we more used for in the CO2
world.

334
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,760
So yes, in my view you do have
to multiply those.

335
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,920
And then obviously if you don't
bring it back to the CO2 world,

336
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,440
you can get the the cheapest
carbon offsets probably for a

337
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,880
dollar.
And then on the other end of the

338
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:30,400
range or probably somewhere in
the middle, you've got the EUETS

339
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,120
that's looked at lately, but
it's probably around 70 or €80

340
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:35,880
per metric ton.
So.

341
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,480
So even there you have a large
variability depending on the on

342
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,240
the specific use case.
Yeah, interesting.

343
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,320
So MIQ has been in in operation
for for a few years now.

344
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:55,600
Where where do you see sort of
the more progress or adoption

345
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,640
coming from?
What have been the highlights of

346
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,040
the last few years?
Yeah.

347
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:06,040
So contrary to our expectations,
this actually got a really good

348
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,960
pick up in the United States.
Initially, we were expecting

349
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,160
this to be picked up much
faster.

350
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,600
In Europe.
We're generally speaking

351
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:25,120
companies and consumers, voters
are more in the progressive kind

352
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:26,800
of landscape.
Now.

353
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,760
Obviously what happened around
the time when we were started

354
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,120
up, that's also when the Russian
invasion happened like a year

355
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:40,000
later or something like that.
And basically I think everybody

356
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,880
in Europe was busy scrambling
for gas and energy and trying to

357
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,800
keep the lights on.
And it almost seems like a far

358
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,840
away memory now, but it was
pretty stressful on the system

359
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,440
and for our governments and so
on and so on.

360
00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:59,720
Whilst the United States is, is,
is a very, very large gas market

361
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,040
and I, I think most European
listeners might not realize

362
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:10,360
that, but the US produces around
100 BCF a day of gas.

363
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,080
That's 1000 BCM per year.
That is give or take more than

364
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,040
twice what Europe consumes as a
total entity.

365
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,080
And that's about 25% of total
gas production globally.

366
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,120
So it's a huge market and
obviously that's ramped up

367
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:29,640
massively over the last decade
or so due to shale gas.

368
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,360
So it's a thriving industry over
there.

369
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,520
And logically, because it is a
fact, there are many cases there

370
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:43,080
where and especially the Permian
is, is well known for this,

371
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,920
where there have been many
facilities or are many

372
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,480
facilities that are actually
leaking quite significantly.

373
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,200
And there's been a lot of
attention around that.

374
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,720
And So what we noticed is there,
there have been many companies

375
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,800
that say, but we are very low
methane.

376
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,280
We are, we are managing this
properly.

377
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,480
And, and what certified gas
does, it allows companies to

378
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,000
differentiate themselves from
the pack and, and we encourage

379
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,560
that we, we are a strong
believer of let the leaders kind

380
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,920
of pull the rest in and let the
rest improve as a consequence

381
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,920
because of market forces.
So yeah, the start up has been

382
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,480
principally in the United
States.

383
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,080
We're now certifying 20% of the
United States gas production,

384
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,920
which is enormous quantity.
And the next stages which are

385
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:33,920
happening now this year is we're
expanding into Europe, Middle

386
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,400
East and Asia Pacific areas as
well where the interest is

387
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,040
increasing.
And so we understood the problem

388
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,760
is big the TX times we
understand we need to go fast

389
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,400
because it's something we need
to solve and technology

390
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,760
regulation are are coming.
What do you think George, are

391
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:02,080
the main barriers there to go
even faster here to increase

392
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:08,200
adoption?
I think if, if, if you want to

393
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:15,240
summarize the barrier, I think a
big one is inertia across

394
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:21,680
society, but not necessarily
inertia in, in the ways that

395
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,400
some people might read it.
But what you have, because

396
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,600
methane is such a complex
subject, what we do notice is

397
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,120
there's there's loads of
opinions around how one should

398
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:37,720
solve this.
And so you have lots of kind of

399
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,120
stakeholders arguing their case,
lots of commercial interests

400
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,360
coming through as well.
And so whether it's the NGO

401
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,040
community, the scientific
community, people who are in

402
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,520
favour of policies or people who
are in favour of more markets

403
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,960
driven approaches, you have a
bit of all of that playing out

404
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,200
through society.
But I think it's coming to a

405
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,560
head now where, for example,
what we've had is, is, is a big

406
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:09,520
change is last year the EU voted
in methane regulations and that,

407
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:13,480
that implementation has started.
That's happening now.

408
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,520
The downside is to some parts of
that legislation are very

409
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,760
unclear and need to be solved.
And, and that creates complexity

410
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,240
in the markets.
We, we, we believe that

411
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:31,200
certified gases is a clear
pragmatic solution to solving

412
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,000
how to deal with the EU methane
regulations.

413
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,240
But that's an ongoing debate at
this very moment and I think

414
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,320
after that it will be a bit
clearer which way companies go.

415
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,960
The the other thing is let let's
not forget how much progress has

416
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,720
been made the last five years.
So in my Mccue we're a

417
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,480
not-for-profit and and there's
other initiatives such as OG and

418
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:02,240
P by the UN for example that
started with OG and P 2.0 around

419
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,560
the same time with that version
I think.

420
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,080
So MIQ in it's five years of
inception, we are now certifying

421
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,280
5% of global gas market.
So it's an enormous amount of

422
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,320
growth in those short years.
I often say, well, we're now at

423
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,360
the stage of the iPhone 2 if you
want to or three or something,

424
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:25,320
something along those lines or
EVs in the year 2010.

425
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,360
And I remember in 2010, I might
not even have known what an EV

426
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,720
was.
And so that's where we are.

427
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,800
And OG and P for example, they
are now dealing with I think a

428
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,640
30% plus of the companies on a
global scale.

429
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,680
So they've had enormous growth
as well.

430
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:47,040
And, and those are two voluntary
initiatives that's grown

431
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,200
enormously, but we need to take
it to that next stage.

432
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,200
And I think that's where the
regulation and especially the EU

433
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:59,040
regulation is coming in because
I, I want, we, we need that,

434
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,920
let's call it the stick of the
regulation to go to that next

435
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,240
level.
So I can, I can see that

436
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,720
happening over the next couple
of years and accelerate away.

437
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,680
But where I want to end up is
that basically it becomes part

438
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,880
and parcel of any commercial
transaction at all times, just

439
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,360
like you deal, you want to know
the price of your goods, the

440
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,880
destination, the flexibility.
You want to know the methane

441
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,400
intensity or the carbon
intensity of the product.

442
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,840
It's there on the statements, no
questions asked.

443
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,960
You don't need to read a
scientific report to understand

444
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,080
what it is.
And currently we still have a

445
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,480
bit in that I need to understand
methane science.

446
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,960
No, no, no, no.
We need to take away that level

447
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,040
of complexity and come to a
common language that that is the

448
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,360
key for me.
And the one probably the driver,

449
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,840
George, as you said is coming
from the from the end user

450
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,200
perspective.
So this kind of awareness about

451
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,320
the problem, how big is the
maintain problem.

452
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,920
Now when we look at the macro,
let's say landscape today, it

453
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:08,240
looks like the pendulum swung
from one side to the other in

454
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,320
the energy dilemma.
So today probably is much more

455
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,000
interest in the energy security
versus the other, the other

456
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,880
aspect about the economics or
about the sustainability part.

457
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,280
What's your view on that?
Because I see we see this

458
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:31,520
impacting lot of discussion
about climate change ESG and but

459
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:36,760
I would like to understand your,
your view on the current, the

460
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,120
current scenario we're living.
Yeah, I'm glad.

461
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,680
I'm glad you're asking that.
Actually.

462
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,520
I love the term energy trilemma.
I think it is sometimes overused

463
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,240
and and there are some issues
with it.

464
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:52,960
But I used a lot to frame things
when I was working at Centrica,

465
00:28:52,960 --> 00:29:00,880
for example, because what it's
kind of says is there is not

466
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,840
necessarily an ideal solution.
You're always having to balance

467
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:09,280
those three forces and I think
the last decades society or

468
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:15,000
maybe 2 decades when too much to
only looking at the

469
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,120
sustainability angle, forgetting
even about price, well, we

470
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,920
should just buy a VS we should
just kind of build the windmills

471
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:28,400
at whatever cost.
And that's before we then forget

472
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,120
the energy security of supply
angle, which has been proven

473
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,680
vastly underestimating in this
particular case, the effects of

474
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,960
the the Russian invasion.
And so I think it's a good

475
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,760
reality check that's come into
the broader debates and that was

476
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,280
needed from my perspective, the
last 1020 years, it's been too

477
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,640
much, I would argue lecturing
around how one should do

478
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,640
sustainability rather than
actually implementing.

479
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,600
And so I think it's a healthy
check.

480
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,560
I also think it's unfortunate
that we have to go through that

481
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,200
kind of reality check and or
including potentially some of

482
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,480
the reasons why it happened
clearly.

483
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,760
And I can understand why it's
created, why some of the

484
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:24,400
sustainability, let's call it
I'm, I'm deliberately using the

485
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,080
word lecturing here now has
created some including political

486
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:33,120
backlash.
I, I don't think from a, I think

487
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,320
many of the proponents forgot to
bring with them the rest of the

488
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,480
population.
And I think that's been very

489
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,160
unfortunate.
I'm, I'm much more a pragmatist

490
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,720
from that perspective, maybe
because I'm Dutch, that's just

491
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,520
what my whole nation tends to
be, tried to find a solution and

492
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,680
move forward.
And so that's what I want to do.

493
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,560
We need to find pragmatic
solutions to this and they tend

494
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,920
to be much more middle of the
roads.

495
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,520
And it's not about ideology.
And so I think it's a healthy

496
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,560
check on.
So I'm in in that sense, I'm

497
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,560
actually quite optimistic in a
way for the next decade.

498
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,440
But the, let's say, the
narrative, we have to move away

499
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,640
from the lecturing perspective.
I think that's key.

500
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,560
And just find solutions,
including technological

501
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,080
solutions.
So yeah, methane is one of them,

502
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,320
as as we explained earlier, can
be done, can be done in a

503
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,880
decade.
So my view there is, let's go

504
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:41,000
and do it, yeah.
So George, five years in, what

505
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,800
do you see in store for MIQ in
the next 5 years, given the new

506
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,680
geopolitical reality, where the
industries do you see sort of

507
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:56,520
entering new sectors?
Do you see expanding more deeply

508
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,200
into the energy system?
Where do you see a MIC?

509
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,560
You're going from here?
Well, first of all, I might want

510
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,160
to retire again because I came
out of retirement for this.

511
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,920
So I need to do this again and
but in five years.

512
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,800
So we, we are starting to to
touch upon adjacent sectors such

513
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,400
As for example, blue ammonia is
a is a logical adjacent sector

514
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,800
to what we're doing.
But I think what our approach

515
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,280
shows is that ultimately you're
going to need that transparent

516
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,800
information that is transferable
together with the commodities.

517
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:36,160
And ultimately, I hope that we
get to similar approaches,

518
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,320
whether it's for steel or
whether other commodities or

519
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,600
plastics.
And, and we're starting slowly

520
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,120
to go into those.
But where I want is just like

521
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,560
when, when you buy, when you go
to the shop and you go in the

522
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,960
morning, I don't know.
I just went past the Pret and

523
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,960
bought myself a coffee.
And you can then buy whatever it

524
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,720
is and you can see how many
calories are in that specific or

525
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,480
how much salt is in that
specific sandwich.

526
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,880
I want that to be the same for
carbon intensity and methane

527
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,960
intensity.
When a trader buys a cargo of

528
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,160
crude, they just know it.
They know the full upstream

529
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,200
emissions up to that point.
And when they then push it

530
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,080
through a chemical factory to
transform it into, I don't know,

531
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,520
Napster, and then maybe
polypropylene and so on.

532
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,920
At each stage, you just know
bang, bang, bang, here are the

533
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,400
emissions.
And people then make decisions,

534
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,720
as I said earlier, not just on
the price, but also on the

535
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,520
emissions.
And that's how we're going to

536
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,240
solve this ultimately in my
view.

537
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,720
And competition works, markets
work.

538
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,520
They are very, very efficient.
You just need to and and that's

539
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,320
really what MIQ is trying to do
is to try to create a, a

540
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,480
credible, transparent working
market.

541
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,560
That's key.
And then the rest will happen

542
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,240
because profit motives work from
that perspective.

543
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,200
Excellent Now, George my you
know takeaways from this

544
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,480
discussion probably linked to,
you know the previous

545
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,360
discussions we've had in other
contexts is that is that

546
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:16,000
pragmatism always Trump's
idealism, right You there are

547
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,280
solutions available to kick off
things today.

548
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,080
Industry doesn't have to wait
for too long to, you know, to

549
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,679
get this started, right?
So if if all of us had this

550
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:30,199
practical view of how methane
emissions can be can be dealt

551
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:33,360
with, more progress can be made.
Going forward so.

552
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:39,040
Fascinating episode for us
understanding directly from

553
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,800
someone who's actually
practicing it on the ground and

554
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,320
helping others others practice
it.

555
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,080
Carmeni what What were your main
takeaways from from this chat

556
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,040
with George?
So now I mean really interesting

557
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:56,920
in our George explain solving
the problem by creating a

558
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:03,200
market.
You also spur me the ideas about

559
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,080
what happened with the carbon
market and what how that kind of

560
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,320
idea work now that we also want
to create a meeting market.

561
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,800
And what are the lesson learned
actually from that experience

562
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:20,560
that the mistakes or that we can
probably avoid or go around when

563
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,480
we're talking about this new
market.

564
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,600
Your reference, George So.
Oh, totally.

565
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,880
And I was involved in many of
these carbon markets.

566
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:34,360
So and that, and that's probably
why I'm or got asked to, to help

567
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,480
with this because in the design
of MIQ, there's a lot of, let's

568
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,000
say, undesigning of what we've
seen in some of the carbon

569
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,080
markets because many things have
gone wrong in some of those

570
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,240
carbon markets.
So you have to be honest, if you

571
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:50,560
take the carbon offsets, for
example, and there's many issues

572
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,480
around that, and that's why it's
not properly scaling in my view.

573
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,760
A better example of how things
can work is the EUETS, although

574
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,840
that has gone through huge
issues as well when there was a

575
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,240
gigantic oversupply for a while.
So yeah, this is all about what

576
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:09,840
we call market design, market
activation, and it has to be

577
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,160
designed for the long term for
credibility.

578
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:18,280
Traders won't show up, buyers
won't show up, operators won't

579
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,960
participate if it's not
credible.

580
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,240
And we'll stand the test of
time.

581
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:24,120
So.
So for me that's the key to

582
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,440
create a market and where you
don't want to end up is in, I

583
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,840
don't know, I'll have 2008
somebody having to clean up the

584
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,560
market as happened with the
financial markets crash at that

585
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,160
time.
So it rigorous design is is key

586
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,560
and that and that's sometimes a
challenge for us as as MIQ to

587
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,640
take that always take that long
term view of of wanting to

588
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,760
create that credible market are.
You OK?

589
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,160
No time has come for us to close
today's episode.

590
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,920
But before we do that, thanks
George for your time, exciting

591
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,640
discussions and I'm sure our
audience will love every aspect

592
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:05,040
of it.
Thank you for joining the show.

593
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,120
My pleasure.
All right, for for our audience,

594
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,880
as you know, you can find us
under the banner Sustainability

595
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,080
Forward on all major podcast
platforms.

596
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,720
Most of our episodes also show
up on on LinkedIn, so you can be

597
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,240
in touch with us through
LinkedIn as well.

598
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,360
We have got a number of
interesting episodes planned for

599
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,520
the rest of the year.
So we will look forward to your

600
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,440
active participation with those
episodes.

601
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,320
Thank you again.
Thank you, Carmen.

602
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,360
Thank you, Rishi, looking
forward to the next episode.

603
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,960
Thank you, George.
Thank you.